Paladin: Possibilities

[Arcon]

Can you give me on reason that pld should be the best tank that isn't based on what you want? The numbers are all that matters because the numbers are what makes the game go round. Sorry if you don't like it that's just how it is.

That argument is tiring and oh so wrong. Yes, it's how it is. How is that an argument, for anything? Welcome to the tautology club. You just said what you said.

It's about what can be and what should be. Why shouldn't we ask for things to be how we want them? Isn't that the entire purpose of feedback? And SE acted on it too in the past, in fact quite a lot. If players never said anything, they wouldn't have adjusted anything at all. I dare you to point out one update in which they didn't add/fix anything suggested by players.

A reason that isn't based on what I want? Because from a role-playing aspect, a paladin is always a knight that focuses on defense more than offense. In fact, I'll go so far as to say PLD is the only (from a role-playing aspect) defensive class in the game, meant to be able to take damage. To a lesser degree, WAR and MNK would also qualify (not because of Counter or Evasion, but because of Defense/Defender and high HP/VIT/Chakra). And in addition to that, it has lots of native hate tools, even JAs that amplify enmity. Put both those things together and you see that PLD was clearly meant to be a tank. If those things don't make it a good tank, then it's a waste of a job, because that's what it was designed to do. Or do you think that's the intention of SE? To make PLD a town job, because of their shiny armor?

[Akujima]

A reason that isn't based on what I want? Because from a role-playing aspect, a paladin is always a knight that focuses on defense more than offense. In fact, I'll go so far as to say PLD is the only (from a role-playing aspect) defensive class in the game, meant to be able to take damage. To a lesser degree, WAR and MNK would also qualify (not because of Counter or Evasion, but because of Defense/Defender and high HP/VIT/Chakra). And in addition to that, it has lots of native hate tools, even JAs that amplify enmity. Put both those things together and you see that PLD was clearly meant to be a tank. If those things don't make it a good tank, then it's a waste of a job, because that's what it was designed to do. Or do you think that's the intention of SE? To make PLD a town job, because of their shiny armor?

Anyone wanting to put up a "counter-argument" should please, please, PLEASE, read this paragraph over and over and over and over... and over and over... and over and over.

Thank you.

[Sarick]

Anyone wanting to put up a "counter-argument" should please, please, PLEASE, read this paragraph over and over and over and over... and over and over... and over and over.

Thank you.

Something to think about.

I once heard a saying that stated. "Sometimes the best defense is a good offense"

This is what makes monks counter tanking effective. With counterbash added or reprisal modified this might comply with the wise wisdom I quoted above. Even a job meant for taking damage and abuse should be allowed to utilize offensive damage mitigation. It's just common sense.

Take a for example, warships carry phalanx cannons to destroy incoming rockets before they hit. This is what phalanx really is as well but damage isn't reflected it's countered with a null effect. Reprisal in my book is just a form of a reactive armor added to the shield. To bad it doesn't last very long and has a relatively long recast.

[Carth]

A reason that isn't based on what I want? Because from a role-playing aspect, a paladin is always a knight that focuses on defense more than offense. In fact, I'll go so far as to say PLD is the only (from a role-playing aspect) defensive class in the game, meant to be able to take damage. To a lesser degree, WAR and MNK would also qualify (not because of Counter or Evasion, but because of Defense/Defender and high HP/VIT/Chakra). And in addition to that, it has lots of native hate tools, even JAs that amplify enmity. Put both those things together and you see that PLD was clearly meant to be a tank. If those things don't make it a good tank, then it's a waste of a job, because that's what it was designed to do. Or do you think that's the intention of SE? To make PLD a town job, because of their shiny armor?

I personally find this hilarious.

Red Mage has been using this argument for a long, long time, even longer than any other job and it has got them nowhere.

Summoner was in the same boat as Red Mage (and in a way still is until 75), and they clammored just as loudly (until 75).

Scholar, now that they're in full identity-crisis mode, are in the same boat as Red Mage since they are literally a White Mage and Black Mage wrapped into one and specifically meant to compete with the roles of those jobs instead of having it's own niche.

And now Paladins finally woke up and smelled the coffee, and want to use the same exact argument in that "this is what we're supposed to do"?

Allow me to be the first to say, this entire argument will collapse right on top of you. Red Mages and Summoners had to accept the reality that the game does not follow the history nor the lore behind them and Square will not take the steps to change that. So I have to say what literally thousands have said to them and say "deal with it".

[Arcon]

I personally find this hilarious.

Red Mage has been using this argument for a long, long time, even longer than any other job and it has got them nowhere.

Summoner was in the same boat as Red Mage (and in a way still is until 75), and they clammored just as loudly (until 75).

Scholar, now that they're in full identity-crisis mode, are in the same boat as Red Mage since they are literally a White Mage and Black Mage wrapped into one and specifically meant to compete with the roles of those jobs instead of having it's own niche.

And now Paladins finally woke up and smelled the coffee, and want to use the same exact argument in that "this is what we're supposed to do"?

Allow me to be the first to say, this entire argument will collapse right on top of you. Red Mages and Summoners had to accept the reality that the game does not follow the history nor the lore behind them and Square will not take the steps to change that. So I have to say what literally thousands have said to them and say "deal with it".

I find that argument kinda groundless. How has it got them nowhere? Admitted, RDM isn't as useful as it used to be, it can still buff very well and almost heal as good as WHM. Maybe not on highest tier NMs, when high level cure spams would be required, but that, again, is kinda how it's supposed to be. White Mage should remain the best healer. Apart from that, lower tier cures, but still useful, almost the same buffs as WHM, at least the ones that matter, better enfeebling options, Refresh II, Phalanx II, Dia III, light nuking, etc. They may not be used for healing as much as they used to, but in my opinion, Lv75 was a bit unadjusted in that regard.

SMNs also are still SMNs, still useful, still good soloers (better than before), can be used to hold/kite/track mobs, magical/physical attacks, less MP worries, more avatars, more strategic uses, etc.

And all I hear SCH asking for is Cure V, which I can somewhat understand, but don't feel strongly either way (and I am a SCH as well). They can nuke on par with BLMs, have more strategic options, although most people are simply too lazy to utilize them.

Sorry, but I don't really see your argument at all. The game does follow the history and lore behind the job descriptions, and SE has repeatedly released updates to reflect that. The only exception I can think of is NIN. It took them years until they recognized NIN as a tank, because that's not what they wanted them to be, but what the players made them. And players held on to that idea so much, that they had no choice but to give in, and to this day NIN still retains its original qualities. All other jobs still retain their original ideas and qualities, SAM can tank decently with the right gear, DRG has utility functions, THF is a bit gimped in the Stealing/Mugging department, but that's it, they even got a huge TH boost now.

All in all, SE has done a nice job keeping the jobs at their respective duties. And as I said before, it's not even that PLD is inherently flawed, but the current game simply doesn't allow them to play their role as intended.

[Greatguardian]

I find that argument kinda groundless. How has it got them nowhere?

It got them an Accuracy buff on Composure and a Sword WS that decreases Magic Evasion. As a RDM who isn't obsessed with melee for some godforsaken reason, these buffs are annoying at best. Why? Opportunity cost. The more tweaks added to a useless feature, the fewer tweaks left for a useful one. Inb4 I get swarmed for this because all the Rdms who post on these forums are melee fanatics.

And as I said before, it's not even that PLD is inherently flawed, but the current game simply doesn't allow them to play their role as intended.

The idea of a Blood Tank in FFXI is inherently flawed. In that sense, "Pure" Paladin is most definitely flawed from the get-go. I'm having trouble determining the scale with which you're talking about the "current game" here though. If you mean "Post-Abyssea/ToAU where DDs are stronger and take as little damage", I agree it keeps Pld/Nin from keeping up properly. If you mean "Final Fantasy XI with its current pDif/cRatio/Enmity functions", then you're right that it does prevent bloodtanking Paladin from ever being useful but I don't think it warrants a change on the scale which you tend to propose.

[Carth]

I find that argument kinda groundless. How has it got them nowhere? Admitted, RDM isn't as useful as it used to be, it can still buff very well and almost heal as good as WHM. Maybe not on highest tier NMs, when high level cure spams would be required, but that, again, is kinda how it's supposed to be. White Mage should remain the best healer. Apart from that, lower tier cures, but still useful, almost the same buffs as WHM, at least the ones that matter, better enfeebling options, Refresh II, Phalanx II, Dia III, light nuking, etc. They may not be used for healing as much as they used to, but in my opinion, Lv75 was a bit unadjusted in that regard.

Go on the RDM forums, because you have no idea what I'm talking about.

Seriously, go read it, because the above quote does not touch anything I have said.

SMNs also are still SMNs, still useful, still good soloers (better than before), can be used to hold/kite/track mobs, magical/physical attacks, less MP worries, more avatars, more strategic uses, etc.

Before 75. During the era when SMNs are just gimped WHMs because SE never bothered to fix the inherent flaw of SMN (their avatars suck without doing 1k+ blood pacts).

And all I hear SCH asking for is Cure V, which I can somewhat understand, but don't feel strongly either way (and I am a SCH as well). They can nuke on par with BLMs, have more strategic options, although most people are simply too lazy to utilize them.

No, SCH was better than BLM and right on par with WHM before Abyssea, because they were MP efficient. They casted more nukes and had similar methods of healing to a WHM. Now that they're second-rate to both jobs they finally realized who they were.

Inb4 I get swarmed for this because all the Rdms who post on these forums are melee fanatics.

While I support melee buffs (because the job has no direction from what I've seen thus far), I personally don't care what RDM get as long as it's a good, or even just a decent update.

[Eeek]

It got them an Accuracy buff on Composure and a Sword WS that decreases Magic Evasion. As a RDM who isn't obsessed with melee for some godforsaken reason, these buffs are annoying at best. Why? Opportunity cost. The more tweaks added to a useless feature, the fewer tweaks left for a useful one. Inb4 I get swarmed for this because all the Rdms who post on these forums are melee fanatics.

Oh God, I couldn't agree with this more.

(Although I do really like Composure for the buff duration bonuses.)

I'm building a melee set just for goofing off solo on RDM/NIN or RDM/BLU, but any RDM should be able to recognize that RDM is a bottom-of-the-barrel DD. RDM's strength is in party play, and while RDM isn't a premiere healer as in the 75cap days (and it never should have been the most sought-after healer), it's still a strong support mage. RDM cripples mobs with enfeebles while curing and nuking as needed.

I don't know why so few RDMs in-game take meleeing seriously while forum RDMs (across several forums) harp on it endlessly. It's like they will not let go of a 7-year-old grudge. I'd take their complaints more seriously if players were limited to one leveled job per character.

RDM isn't the only mage that can wield weapons. All of them can.

RDM is plenty strong even in the age of Abyssea. If my LS/friends have all the required jobs covered for NM killing sprees, then the first thing that happens is that I'm asked to change to RDM. The added support, nukes, and especially enfeebles make a very noticeable difference. I enjoy the hell out of it.