Paladin: Possibilities

[Zyeriis]

@Carth
While I have ignored the fact that VIT/Defense to STR/Attack ratio has always been completely broken (I've argued about this in other threads) it doesn't mean I have forgotten about it. Unless of course, you're not specifically talking to me (or at all). I simply haven't gotten around to typing out potential solutions for that aspect. I've rather been focusing on ways that Paladin can be altered/adjusted to fit in the current scheme of things without that level of re-coding (reworking the str/attack vs. vit/defense scale completely which would include rewriting just about every enemy in the game probably to be just as damaging as they are now).

As for enmity/hate control abilities and cap increases helping it at all, that's a matter of opinion. I've proposed a possible (keyword of this thread) solution regarding enmity cap increase in Modifications #4.

I guess I'll get to work on solutions to the busted VIT/defense scale post (modifications #5) tomorrow during the maintenance.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

Def and VIT are not broken. They reduce damage by a quite significant amount compared to someone taking hits with their face. Anyone remember the old Dynamis when DDs would get one-shotted by Eagle Eye Shot even from *non* NMs (which would do 500 or less to a PLD)? There's nothing preventing current NMs from having equally dangerous attacks, except the devs chose not to give them any. But then the DDs would just all sub NIN...

Reducing damage by 100% with a 100% proc rate (which is what utsusemi is until the shadows run out) is broken. SE refuses to nerf it, therefore, nothing else they do will fix the real problem, unless they give every NM Hundred Fists, which would be kind of boring.

Players can keep throwing out suggestions (I kind of like the idea of having a check each swing based on mob level vs. ninjutsu skill for the mob to "see through" Utsusemi and hit the player, which would appropriately nerf /NINs and put them at some real risk when they take hate without having too drastic an effect on main NINs) but if SE continues to allow 100% damage reduction with a 100% proc rate, no other method of mitigation is going to be able to equal, let alone surpass it. Utsusemi effectively already *is* permanent Invincible -- except better, because it also works on single-target magic damage.

Ochain: large percentage of damage reduction, but less than 100%; high proc rate, but less than 100%.

Utsusemi: 100% damage reduction, 100% proc rate.

...a level 37 subbable spell is more powerful at avoiding damage than a damn empyreal and we're arguing about what JAs could be adjusted?

P.S. Part of this has to do with haste proliferation making recast timers a joke, but I assume SE isn't going to nerf Haste either, even though they definitely should. It's an unbalanced uber-stat for DDs and god mode for Utsusemi/DD tanks.

[Carth]

@Carth
While I have ignored the fact that VIT/Defense to STR/Attack ratio has always been completely broken (I've argued about this in other threads) it doesn't mean I have forgotten about it. Unless of course, you're not specifically talking to me (or at all). I simply haven't gotten around to typing out potential solutions for that aspect. I've rather been focusing on ways that Paladin can be altered/adjusted to fit in the current scheme of things without that level of re-coding (reworking the str/attack vs. vit/defense scale completely which would include rewriting just about every enemy in the game probably to be just as damaging as they are now).

I'm speaking to particularly everyone in this thread, especially ones that say PLD is a tank job and should stay as that, which I agree with, but the problem isn't that PLD is bad at it's job, but rather in every situation, with great players they can take on any NM without a PLD. It's just that if something screws up, PLD is -the- job to bring to stabilize the situation due to Sentinel and cure spamming. Until people realize this there won't be any good suggestions.

Admittedly I didn't look at the Modifications #4 post but now that I did, raising the Enmity cap for PLD is a general step forward but doesn't address the fundamental problem which I've already stated.

Def and VIT are not broken. They reduce damage by a quite significant amount compared to someone taking hits with their face. Anyone remember the old Dynamis when DDs would get one-shotted by Eagle Eye Shot even from *non* NMs (which would do 500 or less to a PLD)? There's nothing preventing current NMs from having equally dangerous attacks, except the devs chose not to give them any.

I realize this is just an example but Eagle Eye Shot is (damage of a ranged attack)(*5). This means if a DD takes 200 damage vs a ranged attack, they'll take 1000 damage vs EES. A PLD that takes 150 damage will take 750 damage. The numbers are largely skewed, but I'll be honest. In all the Dynamis runs I've done, I don't think I've ever seen anyone drop from EES. It's always due to Hundred Fists when a PLD isn't around and the DRKs/BLMs are too "occupied" to stun it.

DEF/VIT is quite broken either way. There's a reason why RDM/NIN tanks took less damage even with their crappy VIT stat and subpar defense gear. It's because with Phalanx and -PDT(/-MDT) gear, a RDM can take less atrocious hits from an NM. PLDs also use -PDT because unlike DEF, it scales up until it reaches hard cap. DEF scales down the higher your DEF rating is buffed up due to how calculations work. This is why Defender is generally regarded as "crap" even to PLDs.

VIT in itself is just kinda messy since you need so much of it to find a noticeable effect.

[Greatguardian]

Actually, the only reason DDs got a bad rap was because most healers sucked and insisted on trying to keep a PLD alive instead of curing the real tank.

True enough, ha.

Again, Talking about Paladin (and non-blink tanking) in it's current state has absolutely nothing to do with coming up with ideas to equalize the two (other than being the reason/cause, rather than a point of discussion and a "counter-argument").

Stop arguing the cause, start arguing the solution.

It has everything to do with the post I specifically replied to. Don't be mad just because two people chose to post about something aside from Paladin Modifications #9001. We were on topic, get over it.

I think what needs to happen is SE's stand on what the characteristics of each job consist of. At the moment alot of them feel bland, and it's quite hard to feel any difference between them.

This is because all jobs are fundamentally the same. Jobs do not define your character. Jobs augment your base character with Skills, Traits, Abilities, and Spells. It does not make them function any differently from one another. That is simply how the game was designed, how it works, and how it will always work. This cannot be changed.

What you seem to want is a different game. In all honesty, that may be the best option for you. I'm not trying to tell you to "gtfo", but there is a market for video games for a reason. You seem to dislike how FFXI works from its very core. Your adjustments practically ask for an entirely new game with the Ninja/Final Fantasy label on it. I honestly think you would be happier just trying out different games until you find one that suits you better.

[B]There's just going to have to be an acceptance of what a Job CAN and CANNOT do. Without this acceptance, there can never be balance when it comes to the definition of Jobs as a whole.

I refuse to be told what I "Can" or "Cannot" do based on my job. The Developers have always supported the freedom to attempt as wide a variety of techniques as the playerbase wants to. Heck, we have surprised them with our ingenuity quite a few times now. It does not matter how a job is "Meant" to be played, or what role it's "Supposed" to have. We, the players, will find the role that is most effective for it, even if that role is benchwarming.

@Karinya:

Utsusemi's already been nerfed a couple times. I doubt the Devs are in any rush at all to nerf Utsusemi or Haste just because some Paladins complain. That is, more than they've already nerfed them.

[Ravenmore]

Blu works best for stun locking mnks in dyna. With march and a decent haste build You can have a 4 sec recast on head butt 2 blus can stun lock the mob while one can keep another DD from eating dirt. So PLD one golden event were they would not be /nin can be done with out them at 75, 90, 99. Any nerf to Utsusemi would also be a nerf to PLD. PLDs that refuse to use /nin should be left out.

[Byrth]

This is true. a BLU spamming Head Butt removes all the danger from pretty much every old event. 95% hit rate, high magic accuracy. If your mages don't think they can heal heavy 2H DDs, toss a Blue Mage in and they'll be able to.

[Zyeriis]

Modifications #5

2) Combat Roles

-2B) Stabilizer/Savior
This combat role is pretty much what Paladin boils down to in it's current state. They're basically the "back-up" should things go wrong. The problem is this "back-up" is seldom required, let alone is it useful on a day-by-day basis. I, personally, would rather see Paladin get advancement in other areas but, I must post this possible solution regardless.

Why not expand upon Paladin's ability to be there when some one else fails? Give them abilities that can save people from impending doom (cure isn't really what I mean here). -Na spells in particular, such as Cursna, would give Paladin a little more leeway, without replacing White Mages in any way. Yes, Paladin can sub White Mage and get these spells, as can any other Mage but, adding the spells specifically to PLD as a main would allow them to keep their /nin, /dnc, or /war (situation depending) and still have them.

--2a) Reviviscence
Naturally, just giving PLD some -na spells won't help it all invite wise or in truly becoming a full-on savior-esqe job. Reviviscence, a special spell specific to Ferreous Coffin (a Freelancer Campaign NPC) remove weakness from a player. While Ferreous is a White Mage and higher level/tier raise spells are pretty much a white mage's trademark, I see potential in Revivscence being given to Paladin exclusively.

"Why should Paladin get the best Raise spell in the game, that would be nothing more than a gimmick ability to get people to use Paladin again?"

I won't deny that this would be a relative gimmick to give to Paladin but so was giving Refresh to Red Mage. Also, it wouldn't have to be able to raise people, it would just have to remove weakness. Couple that with high mp cost and even higher recast time and it wouldn't be so overpowered (unless of course, you simply have an army of paladin's in your alliance while a small number of people take on the NM without worry). In which case, I am open to suggestions as to how to balance this particular idea out or any other ideas that could be added to this one (savior-esqe role in combat).

6) VIT/Defense

-6A) VIT/STR + Def/Atk Scale
The statistics and formulas behind the calculation has always been broken. No one can deny this (only bring it up repeatedly, by stating something everyone already knows and is completely irrelevant to other ideas thus far in the solutions listings). The thing I don't think anyone knows is as to "why?" this has never been fixed. So, we need to either A) wait for SE to tell us why (like we've been waiting for all these years), B) come up with ideas to get around it without changing the game at all (see: "I want Paladin to DD better"), C) not use paladin (already being done and isn't a solution), or D) request a fix to this broken scale.

I'm going with D (anyone shocked?). However, there are potential problems with doing so. Such as having to rework pretty much every NM and enemy in the game to coincide with the change to the scale. This is no simple, easy, or non-time consuming task I would think. That problem though, is more of a lazy/unwillingness by the dev team to fix something so very broken. That laziness has given us things like "VIT now affects damage taken by critical attacks". Which, no matter how potent this buff to VIT may be does in no way change day-by-day calculations of non-critical/normal damage versus normal defense/VIT, which is the problem. How many NMs can you think of that are notorious for their critical hits?

Some will say that -PDT is the solution here but, they seem to not realize that the jobs that are causing PLD to lose it's place in the game, can also use these things. This is why there needs to be either A) a nerf to DDs being able to wear these -PDT pieces of equipment or B) the scale of STR/attack vs. VIT/defense to be rewritten.

Not only will a rewrite to this flawed scale improve Paladin's useful in survival, it will also affect the enmity gain of the DDs that seek to out-enmity the PLD through damage spam. Enemies will be affected by the increased effectiveness of VIT/defense vs. STR/attack and DD damage capabilities may drop (thus enmity-rate drop) that rely heavily upon STR.

People may be outraged by this: "I can't do ridiculous amounts of damage anymore!? /ragequit" > "They want the game to be balanced? Screw that, I want to be inherently better than other jobs!" > "They're nerfing our ability to survive while at the same time being able to deal tons of damage? That's stupid, I want to be able to do both at the same time regardless of job!". Is it really that big of a deal to level the playing field? They could very well level it without affecting damage output.

[Akujima]

Some will say that -PDT is the solution here but, they seem to not realize that the jobs that are causing PLD to lose it's place in the game, can also use these things. This is why there needs to be either A) a nerf to DDs being able to wear these -PDT pieces of equipment or B) the scale of STR/attack vs. VIT/defense to be rewritten.

...

People may be outraged by this: "I can't do ridiculous amounts of damage anymore!? /ragequit" > "They want the game to be balanced? Screw that, I want to be inherently better than other jobs!" > "They're nerfing our ability to survive while at the same time being able to deal tons of damage? That's stupid, I want to be able to do both at the same time regardless of job!". Is it really that big of a deal to level the playing field? They could very well level it without affecting damage output.

What I think happened, is that PLD was the only Job out there that could tank effectively in the past. The only other way to defeat certain bosses, was to "Zerg" them before the boss went ape-$hit and killed all the Melee. (IMO "Zerging should not be possible, due to it stripping dynamics completely out of the game, but that in itself is another topic altogether.)

While I agree that PLD should be a tank, I disagree that it should be the only one. That being said, I agree with your point that if a job outputs major damage, it should also have to sacrifice it's survivability.

The flop by the developers, was to add Equipment and Spells (allowing more jobs than one to access them) that allow certain Melee jobs to "Tank" effectively. What they should have done, was to decide which of the other jobs was going to be a "Tank" and give them the appropriate JA and JT in order to do so.

Arhat's Gi set, Jelly ring, ASA augmented legs and Twilight Torque, all opened up the possibility of Melee mitigating so much damage, it turned PLD into just a "precaution" type job. These -PDT gear sets along with shadows from Utsusemi, really tipped the scales too far for Melee's being able to "Tank".

While your other suggestions are great, I really feel that without doing these two major things, it will be very difficult to revive PLD as being seen as "useful" to the majority of the player base. These two things being:

1. Screw it and make PLD a DD. (something I don't want to see happen) or...
2. Nerf other jobs ability to "Tank" effectively, and decide which other 1~2 jobs can than be another "Tank" Class.

#2 would be met with heavy opposition. And I worry that due to this opposition, the developers will "turn a blind eye" to what could (IMO) bring more balance and dynamics to jobs as a whole.

[Zyeriis]

@Greatguardian
And I doubt they won't nerf utsusemi just because people complain that it's getting nerfed. Why do you think you should get special treatment because you're not a Paladin?

(Edit: I'm not saying i want a nerf to utsusemi (or that they're going to), as I want Paladin brought up to being useful without it. I'm saying, like most of your "arguments" that it's silly to think that you deserve to be inherently better than another job just because you use a different job: No one should be potentially equal to you?)

[Greatguardian]

@Greatguardian
And I doubt they're won't nerf utsusemi just because people complain that it's getting nerfed. Why do you think you should get special treatment because you're not a Paladin?

(Edit: I'm not saying i want a nerf to utsusemi (or that they're going to), as I want Paladin brought up to being useful without it. I'm saying, like most of your "arguments" that it's silly to think that you deserve to be inherently better than another job just because you use a different job: No one should be potentially equal to you?)

I am a Paladin. An old one, and a good one. I've always considered it one of my favorite jobs. Unlike many other posters here, however, I'm in favor of realistic additions to the job rather than nonsense. You want a complete overhaul of the cRatio system. Arcon wants a complete overhaul of the Enmity system. As far as I'm concerned, both ideas are rubbish since you may as well rewrite the entire game from scratch if you want to fundamentally alter the core game mechanics in such a way.

I'm not sure you're understanding what I said earlier, either. Utsusemi and Haste have already been nerfed multiple times in the game's history. I simply find it unlikely that these core attributes are ever going to be considered for yet another nerf simply because a few people are upset that their job is not #1.

I never said that any amount of complaining would stop a nerf. I said that some paltry complaining is not going to cause one.