[Gratitude] PS2 Limitations

[Dihlyte]

they messed it up and made something most ff11 players didn't like.

It’s funny that they failed with FFXIV 1.0, and FFXIV 2.0 to create a game FFXI players would like. Literally had two chances, and failed both times…

I played FFXIV for 9 years, but that was because I loved FFXIV 1.23b so much.

Once they finally gutted FFXIV too much around 5.4 I finally quit XIV to play FFXI.

I think if most people who tried FFXIV and didn’t like it, tried FFXI, then FFXI would be the more popular MMO.

The problem is SE doesn’t advertise FFXI at all, so most people are under the impression FFXI was shut down years ago.

I can’t tell you how many times people say “I thought FFXI was shutdown” when I’m trying to tell them how great of a game it is.

[Alhanelem]

and FFXIV 2.0 to create a game FFXI players would like. Literally had two chances, and failed both times…

Uh, sorry, but 2.0 didn't "fail." lol

Subjective whether or not any particular individual likes it going forward from there, and that's fine, but you having a problem with it doesn't make it a failiure. Even I really only play through the story and engage in side activities like pvp and soloing deep dungeon. So I'm not in love the way I used to be but I still enjoy certain aspects.

I think if most people who tried FFXIV and didn’t like it, tried FFXI, then FFXI would be the more popular MMO.

It wouldn't, unless maybe you only ask 40+ year olds who remember and prefer older games to anything being made today. For everyone else, that's not going to happen. Quit living in a (final) fantasy. I've tried to convince more than a few people to play, they take one look at it and are like "nope". Unless you're a very early millenial or older, or FFXI is like, the first video game you ever try, that's not likely to happen.

[Zenion]

It wouldn't, unless maybe you only ask 40+ year olds who remember and prefer older games to anything being made today. For everyone else, that's not going to happen. Quit living in a (final) fantasy. I've tried to convince more than a few people to play, they take one look at it and are like "nope". Unless you're a very early millenial or older, or FFXI is like, the first video game you ever try, that's not likely to happen.

The problem is that when you invite someone to play, they have to start at the very beginning, and the very beginning of FFXI is the absolute worst part. Go out, punch some bees, try to figure out the arcane complexities of an interface that doesn't explain itself to you, just go and grind for levels and, if you chose a mage job, realize that you only get one spell for free (once you know how to use your starter scroll!) and have to earn or buy the other ones with the like 13 gil you get when you manage to survive fighting a beastman that you probably didn't even want to fight in the first place because they're what passes for a tutorial on aggressive monsters...

The barrier for entry is really high, and people don't usually love trudging through "just wait, it gets good in another hundred hours."

You know what would probably make the game, like, way more popular? A prologue sequence where you get to actually try out level 75 abilities and gear for a brief mission before assuming the role of your actual character. Show them what the game feels like when it's actually good, demonstrate skillchains, magic bursts, and gear swapping, and still give them something to look forward to because if that was 75, what's 99 going to look like.

[Alhanelem]

The problem is that when you invite someone to play, they have to start at the very beginning, and the very beginning of FFXI is the absolute worst part.

New user onboarding is where you make your first impressions and I'm certainly in agreement there that it's one of the game's weak points. The game basically just drops you in the world after a short cutscene and it's just like "we're not going to tell you anything, good luck."

Even FFXIV had this problem, albeit to a lesser degree. The game offers plenty of guidance, just the early story moves real slow and some people lose patience before they get to the "good part."

[Catmato]

How long has it been since either of you started a new character AND actually paid attention to what the game tells you? Turning in the adventurer coupon will direct you to the tutorial NPC at the city gate, who'll give you the basics of combat, crafting, skillchains, and eventually unlock RoE. It's FAR from what you'd get in any modern MMO, but it's significantly more guidance than we got when we started.

[Dihlyte]

How long has it been since either of you started a new character AND actually paid attention to what the game tells you? Turning in the adventurer coupon will direct you to the tutorial NPC at the city gate, who'll give you the basics of combat, crafting, skillchains, and eventually unlock RoE. It's FAR from what you'd get in any modern MMO, but it's significantly more guidance than we got when we started.

I don’t believe the question was directed at me, but I started another character just 2 months ago, and I feel FFXI has a pretty good balance in guidance.

The only thing I would change, is adding another section to RoE after “Beginner” and “Intermediate” to direct people to learn about more content.

I know there is the “content” section of RoE, but I feel more people are likely to do the other two sections, and become lost.

So many posts on Reddit of people saying they did Ambu, skirmish, and WKR, and then no longer know what to do, on top of seeing people “stop” at this point in-game as well.

I think one more section after intermediate could help solve this.

[Zenion]

Well, okay, so there's an in-game manual. That helps with understanding the concepts, but it doesn't help with retention; probably the opposite actually, skillchains are a lot simpler in execution than they are in theory, but if all you get is a long dry explanation you're never going to know that, and it's probably like twenty levels before you first have a reasonable capacity to even try to do one, if you're in a party with somebody who knows the skillchain chart.

"More than what we had" isn't a shining endorsement. When I started, I had gained three levels before I even learned I had starting equipment, because you didn't start with it equipped and there was no indication that you should check your inventory for that stuff. The last person I tried talking into playing quit in an hour because just figuring out the interface was too difficult. Don't praise an experience that's like walking barefoot on hot coals just because they removed the broken glass.

Also bear in mind that we're not competing with FFXI 22 years ago. We're competing with modern MMOs. Most players are only going to be on one, maybe two at a time; if somebody decides to check out FFXI and the first two hours are boring and confusing, but then they try World of Warcraft and they're having fun in those first two hours, World of Warcraft is the one that's getting monthly subscriptions.

If FFXI had a strong base of new players who would interact with each other and create a sense of community, that might be enough to keep people playing. That's what we had, and it seems to have worked, after all. But it doesn't. I don't think anybody new joins FFXI without one of the old guard players saying "check this out, no I swear it's great." That's not remotely the same, that's just joining to hang out with one person, it doesn't create a compelling reason to stick with FFXI. Almost the opposite, since they won't be playing the game, they'll be getting rushed through it - "go here, do this, talk to this guy, okay let's go to Qufim, sit still while I get you to the level cap" - to get them to where they can actually play with that friend. They'll reach level 99 never having really experiencing the game, it'll just be this weird almost obligation to their friend.

I wonder what would happen if Square-Enix did a sudden big advertising push to pull in a fresh player base, and sent all the new players to a new server with no established characters; would they be more inclined to stay, with that feeling of all struggling together? Would they build the kind of community that kept us all here and playing? Or would they just get bored and all quit?

[Alhanelem]

How long has it been since either of you started a new character AND actually paid attention to what the game tells you? Turning in the adventurer coupon will direct you to the tutorial NPC at the city gate, who'll give you the basics of combat, crafting, skillchains, and eventually unlock RoE.

This sounds easy to us because we know the game. But the reality is, without reading a guide beforehand, because the game does not have giant arrows or big flashing signs directing you to even the first few NPCs means that some people WILL get lost/confused before even doing that adventurer coupon turn-in (aside from the fact that even at the beginning of the game, the 50 gil you get from that thing isn't even worth the time it takes to turn it in).

See "Guide Dang It" on TVTropes. FFXI is practically what gave rise to that trope. The game is practically impossible without looking up a guide, wiki, or walkthrough for a new player.

No one who has played the game before and made it to max level is qualified to say how good the onboarding experience is for new players. You did it all before and stuck through it. But frankly I would find it hard to believe that none of you struggled at all to figure things out *the first time*. Again, it sounds easy enough / reasonable enough to you because you already know how it works, so the in-game advice makes sense, plus you already know where the relevant NPCs are, how to trade, etc. New players don't have this information. To a limited extent, the manual that came with the game (which is also available within playonline) did help with this, but let's be honest:

People don't read manuals anymore. Games don't come with them anymore explicitly because of that.

[Dihlyte]

I wonder what would happen if Square-Enix did a sudden big advertising push to pull in a fresh player base, and sent all the new players to a new server with no established characters; would they be more inclined to stay, with that feeling of all struggling together? Would they build the kind of community that kept us all here and playing? Or would they just get bored and all quit?

I always wondered what would happen if SE did this.

I don’t see why they don’t add about 3 or so brand new servers, and prevent transfers to those servers for a few years.

It would be a cheap, and easy way to bring in a wave of new players.

The problem is SE doesn’t seem to like making money, or being creative, or listening to their fanbase.

It’s almost as if they are purposefully doing the opposite of what makes sense.

[Dihlyte]

It’s almost as if they are purposefully doing the opposite of what makes sense.

For Square-Enix:

I will explain this.




-FFVII-Remake

Final Fantasy fans asked for FFVII-Remake.
You gave us a completely different game with FFVII characters.

FFVII-Remake, if it was still the original game, just with updated graphics, it would be printing money. Instead, they decided to completely change everything, including the story. Why?






-FFXIV

FFXIV failed because many reasons, but adding Final Fantasy jobs, was a step in the right direction. FFXIV:ARR brought in so many players excited to see PLD, WAR, MNK, WHM in the trailers, and then when they played it, found out it was a theme park game, and not a RPG, so they quit. Now it’s WW, Fortnite, Gundam, and anything but Final Fantasy, just like 1.0, effectively taking a step right back to the original that failed so hard.





-Final Fantasy 16

FF16, is not even a RPG, or anything that represents Final Fantasy, except in visual concepts. Gameplay, characters, nothing in that game says Final Fantasy except the visuals. Which is what a movie, The Spirits Within, should have been.






It is so confusing to me why Square-Enix makes these decisions.

“We are listening to feedback” they say this each new game, but do they purposefully “forget” all the feedback from previous games, or do they literally go in “fresh” and forget that the previous games, and fans exist?

Makes no sense to me.

The best way to grow a fanbase is to please your existing fans, and they will help spread the word of good games.

Ignore them, and pretend they don’t exist, and you will have to contend against your own fanbase to grow a brand new one.

It’s wild to me that Yoshida was so brazen to call anyone in the FF fanbase “tiresome.” I have no clue how in any way, is insulting your own fans helpful or a good move.