FFXI Remaster - Remake

[Zenion]

That mystery game has a lot more depth than your description conveys, even though there is some accuracy to it.

Sure, there's a whole lot of still that a player can choose to do with it that isn't strictly necessary to the core game experience. I think that's what makes it work - it's as deep as you want it to be, because the top layer is ridiculously simple and the complexity is buried a little under the surface.

Which is kind of the opposite of how FFXI works. Here, you've got all kinds of choices up front, lots of stuff you could do... but experienced players know that there is in fact one specific right choice in almost any given situation, and anything beyond that is largely ignored.

I'd try and do some kind of compare-and-contrast analysis and bring it back to what might make a better remake experience, but I'm freakin' tired right now. I wanted to be settling in to sleep like three hours ago but the guild point item of the day is Sea Zombies and apparently the age of piracy has come to an abrupt end. This is something that could really use some work: respect for the players' time. Don't make us wait 15 minutes for a chance of being able to do an activity, over and over again; offer some kind of direct path to being able to take the necessary action. Don't lock a fish behind a four times an hour something percent chance to attempt to fish for it and then say "that, we need you to bring us that, you have 24 hours."

[Dihlyte]

While you certainly can leave feedback on these forums, it in fact is NOT the primary focus.

Well, going by Welcome to Forum: General Discussion! [1]:

The purpose of this forum is for players to discuss various topics on FINAL FANTASY XI with other players.

As for the forums in general, here's a quote from Welcome to the official FINAL FANTASY XI forums! [2]:

I personally choose not to argue. Sorry.

You're more then welcome to disagree, and make your points, but this will be the end of me responding in terms or appearing to argue.

I welcome you to reply with how ever you like, as much as you like, but I personally will not be participating in further arguing. I don't enjoy it and find it unproductive.

Gamepads don't work wireless?

Not on windows PC without 3rd party software. I mean they do work, but they have input lag. So you need to turn them off, and connect them with a wire for it to work properly.

Curious about this one. What exactly do you mean by bouncing off the walls?

Like, if you stand close to a wall, turn the camera, and it gets closer to you?

When you stand near a wall your camera just doesnt get closer. Your camera will actually persistently bounce off the wall continuously so that its constantly zooming in and out on its own in a very erratic manner. I'm sure you've see this.

I kind of like the fact that we actually need to face the enemy... the thing I don't like is how the lag I have to the servers can make it... well, something I need to take into account for when I do things. ^^;

I wasn't referring to the need to face the enemy. I was referring to when you pull multiple enemies and the one you're targeting gets so close to you that it keeps going "out of view" partially behind you so that your character is unable to attack. The enemies will move around constantly which results in you unable to perform any weapon skills. Its a very awkward experience. Even if you constantly move backwards the game still registers the enemy behind you even if its in front of you visually. It is very strange.

It only happens when you pull multiple mobs. It just would be a nice fix if they couldn't do that. Same with trusts, they get "inside" your character and constantly spin around on top of your character and its very odd.

Is it not already possible to hide them via Chat Filters?

I did not test just now, but as far as I can remember, and look at the list of them, it should be doable? Maybe I am missing something.

I'm not referring to chat filters.

For the shiny spots, I think I kind of appreaciate them for logging and mining and harvesting points for example.

I mean quest marker locations. Gathering locations are fine.

Is this the issue where you start combat, but your character just stands still while getting bombarded?

Yes. Regardless if you can move or not, this can result in death to many new players, and is really an unnecessary animation lock. I can personally circumvent this issue with practice, but it is odd, hurts new players, and unnecessary. (In my opinion of course.)

[Zenion]

When you stand near a wall your camera just doesnt get closer. Your camera will actually persistently bounce off the wall continuously so that its constantly zooming in and out on its own in a very erratic manner. I'm sure you've see this.

That one might be hard to fix; cameras in 3D space can be really tricky. Treat them as a physical object, and they can snag on things and do some really undesirable stuff - Sonic Adventure 2: Battle was awful for this, if you tried you could easily trap the camera and escape it entirely (and if you didn't try, it could still happen; the camera was the real villain of that game.) Don't treat them as a physical object, and they can clip into places they shouldn't, giving the player a glimpse into the void outside the game world (possibly with no idea how it happened.) You can clip the FFXI camera halfway into a lot of walls to get a taste of what that looks like.

What behavior would you consider acceptable? Should the camera lock in place when it hits a wall? Should it clip into the wall? Should it continue its motion in as close to a circle around the player as possible, knowing that this will result in some unwanted extreme closeups of the character model?

Serious question, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I really want to hear what a good solution to this might look like.

[Dragoy]

I personally choose not to argue. Sorry.

I definitely wasn't going for that there, if that is what it seemed like. I was just commenting on the purpose of these forums. :]

Not on windows PC without 3rd party software. I mean they do work, but they have input lag. So you need to turn them off, and connect them with a wire for it to work properly.

Ah, yeah, suppose there will always be lag with them. Not sure there's anything that can be done on the FFXI side to help with that.

When you stand near a wall your camera just doesnt get closer. Your camera will actually persistently bounce off the wall continuously so that its constantly zooming in and out on its own in a very erratic manner. I'm sure you've see this.

Oh, yeah, that does indeed happen.

I suppose it should be possible to detect that the camera started going wild, and stop it, but can't say how complicated that would be since I haven't seen the code.

I wasn't referring to the need to face the enemy. I was referring to when you pull multiple enemies and the one you're targeting gets so close to you that it keeps going "out of view" partially behind you so that your character is unable to attack. The enemies will move around constantly which results in you unable to perform any weapon skills. Its a very awkward experience. Even if you constantly move backwards the game still registers the enemy behind you even if its in front of you visually. It is very strange.

It only happens when you pull multiple mobs. It just would be a nice fix if they couldn't do that. Same with trusts, they get "inside" your character and constantly spin around on top of your character and its very odd.

Right, seen that too. I suppose I instinctively "correct" for it, so I don't feel like it happens that much, but yeah, indeed, can be very confusing and annoying.

I'm not referring to chat filters.

Right, but they are connected to the visible numbers, for example filtering damage from party members should stop them from appearing for them.

[Dihlyte]

I just... I have to step in here right quick and set everybody straight on something.

Y'all know what the single most successful RPG franchise of all time is? I'll give you a hint, it's got terrible graphics for whatever generation it appears in, a basic rock-paper-scissors battle system that gives the player an astounding four options per turn, and a story that can generously be described as "there" - but somehow it became the very best, like no-one ever was.

I dunno, maybe the secret sauce isn't challenge, graphics, or story?

I’m genuinely not sure which game you're referring to, but if you’re responding to the discussion regarding “simple and easy” comments, then let me say, me saying "RPG’s should not be simple and easy" doesn’t translate into “RPG’s have to be difficult and complex.”


What it means, is what I said, within the context of this thread.

This thread of which is in regards to SE potentially remaking or remastering FFXI.

Of which my stance, is turning FFXI into a theme park game like FFXIV, doesn’t help anyone, as we literally already have a theme park Final Fantasy game, in the form of FFXIV.


The reason FFXI still stands today, is because it is different from FFXIV, and the people that want the gameplay FFXI offers.

Taking that gameplay away, to offer something else is risky.

Taking that gameplay to offer something that already exists (FFXIV clone) is pointless.

[Zenion]

I was referring to Pokemon, fourth-highest selling video game franchise, the largest intellectual property in the world. And undeniably part of the RPG genre, so like... any discussion of what, in a general sense, makes a good RPG should probably look at that because the money says that's the one to beat.

As far as changing FFXI's gameplay though... I mean, what we have now is good, yeah. I wouldn't want to see a version without skillchains and magic bursts - arguably I'd say they should be made more enticing to players in a remake. Bosses telegraphing their moves more wouldn't make the game easier so much as make it more playable. Gear swapping, which is at the heart of how we play FFXI now, is integral to the player experience but not to the play experience - a good remake would let you map sets of gear to specific weaponskills, job abilities, and actions and just swap in automatically without needing to concentrate on hitting the right macros at the right time (I still remember back in the day when I would hit, no word of a lie, ten macros to use a blood pact - that's not nearly as fun as just building the set and having it ready when you need it.)

Quests and missions... those need a lot of work. I know Mindartia better than I know the county I physically live in, but I'd never figure out what half of the older ones want without a guide. If that's the kind of challenge some old-timers want, that's fine, but for everyone else there should be some kind of help system available without having to rely on our crumbling wiki infrastructure.

Changes that make gameplay feel more active might not be a bad thing. Maybe a risk/reward tradeoff where you can turn off normal auto-attacks in favor of some kind of timing challenge to get -30% to +30% damage and/or TP - or maybe even trade damage for TP gain depending on if you hit early or late. Even in something that's designed around being "turn-based" it sometimes feels like there's not enough time to stop and think about what you're doing anyway (if it's not on a macro it's not an option) so why pretend it's a slow-paced game?

Zones absolutely need to stay the same or even be expanded - yes, there is a lot of open area that isn't "useful", but that makes Vana'diel feel like a world. I'm still finding new places and sights that I just never really noticed before; something that rewards sight-seeing might actually be a nice addition. If this is the point you're getting at with the "theme park" point, yeah, I whole-heartedly agree. Misareaux Coast is redundant, Sanctuary of Zi'tah is mostly wasted space, and we like the world because it has places like that, not in spite of it. What was it, Final Fantasy XIII that people tore to utter shreds for being a series of linear corridors? Nobody wants that. Even outside Final Fantasy, looking at Pokemon as a very successful example... the most recent games went open-world and that's like the one thing fans really like about them, after the painfully linear previous generation. Exploration is a good option to have. Let the players worry about how to most efficiently ignore all that lovely terrain, don't just bin it preemptively.

I think I might actually like to see FFXI get the A Realm Reborn treatment, now that I think of it: Our Vana'diel is already an alternate bubble reality anyway, why not give FFXI Remake players a different version to play in, where... I don't know, Bahamut scourged the land or the Shadow Lord was never defeated or any of the other disasters that were averted in this timeline happened, and then after some time in that version of the world they get to visit the one we have now, recreated in most of its glory? That would make a great excuse to purge some content that nobody will miss - there are so, so many old quests that nobody will ever do because not even the scraps of story they can provide - if any - are worth the trouble. Maybe you start the player off with a narrow job selection - one or two - and the original six are unlocked on the first visit to preserved Vana'diel.

Sorry, I'm all over the place here, but I'm honestly not sure what I'm supposed to be focusing on here to provide a counterpoint to the whole... thing... that has been the discussion so far. Very "too long didn't read" and the debate has been boiled down to just a couple of talking points. I think my point was supposed to be that there's a lot of room to simplify and adapt things without losing the essence of the game, and there are definitely ways it can be made easier for new players to get into without making it boring for returning players. If we want a remaster or remake to have a chance, it absolutely can not appeal to just the FFXI veterans, we need new blood in the game both to justify investment in a new version and... well just in general, honestly.

[Alhanelem]

I was referring to Pokemon, fourth-highest selling video game franchise, the largest intellectual property in the world. And undeniably part of the RPG genre, so like... any discussion of what, in a general sense, makes a good RPG should probably look at that because the money says that's the one to beat.

As far as changing FFXI's gameplay though... I mean, what we have now is good, yeah. I wouldn't want to see a version without skillchains and magic bursts - arguably I'd say they should be made more enticing to players in a remake. Bosses telegraphing their moves more wouldn't make the game easier so much as make it more playable. Gear swapping, which is at the heart of how we play FFXI now, is integral to the player experience but not to the play experience - a good remake would let you map sets of gear to specific weaponskills, job abilities, and actions and just swap in automatically without needing to concentrate on hitting the right macros at the right time (I still remember back in the day when I would hit, no word of a lie, ten macros to use a blood pact - that's not nearly as fun as just building the set and having it ready when you need it.)

Quests and missions... those need a lot of work. I know Mindartia better than I know the county I physically live in, but I'd never figure out what half of the older ones want without a guide. If that's the kind of challenge some old-timers want, that's fine, but for everyone else there should be some kind of help system available without having to rely on our crumbling wiki infrastructure.

I love most aspects of FFXI's combat system. If there was a remake, all I feel it needs is to be made more fluid and responsive. FFXI's movement and pervasive animation lock make things feel clunky compared to almost any game of any sort made today. We are all mostly fine with that because we grew up with it and are used to the jank inherent to it. But this would be a roadblock to almost anyone who isn't already playing FFXI now. Ditch the animation lock on most skills and spells, make things more responsive, and movement smoother. A lot of this is down to the servers only being in Japan. If we had local servers in a remake, that would help quite a lot by itself. Skillchains and bursts are one of the core things that makes combat in FFXI distinct from other games, as it encourages cooperation.

Also FFXI does have some very cryptic quests and missions that are almost impossible for a new user without referring to a guide ( Guide dang it! ). In a remake I'd like to see more information be available within the game itself. Adjust dialogue for quests so that it's easier to figure things out (I'm not asking for obvious quest markers like in FFXIV, but just making certain things a bit less cryptic- For example, some chapters of TVR start in different places from where the last mission ended, but there is ZERO information about where to go in-game. You either had to be around when it was releasd to know from the news, or read a guide).

[Zenion]

Also FFXI does have some very cryptic quests and missions that are almost impossible for a new user without referring to a guide ( Guide dang it! ).

Oh, are you the one user on TVTropes who knows FFXI still exists? I'd wondered how it was still getting mentioned as an example of stuff when, to most of the internet, the game's been dead and buried for over a decade.

Now, I know this is difficult, it gets into that undefinable "juiciness" factor of a game, but... what would a more fluid combat system look like, if it were to still feel like FFXI?

Animation lock is definitely a key thing - there are specific status effects which are intended to prevent the player from taking action, so just having things happen shouldn't do that; either allow player actions without running the animation, or give player animations highest priority to prevent loss of agency.

Streamlining combat menus would be good; I'd personally hate to see a move to all on-screen icons to click, but maybe having those as a supplement to the menus would be good? Typing out "/ma "flare ii" <bt>" in the heat of battle can be a bit much (go on, try doing it in under two seconds without any typos), and finding it in the menu is almost as bad; player-defined sub-groupings could speed things up (imagine how much faster being able to look up Magic > Fire > Flare II would be, for example.) Yes, I know, I know, we have macros for that, but those just become yet another menu to scroll through unless you pare your options down to the top twenty things you want to do; how many times have you been in the middle of a fight and realized you really need to use an ability or spell that you didn't think to put into your macros (perhaps because you needed room for dedicated gear swapping macros, for things like idle and refresh sets?)

I think maybe having a target queue would be good. Designate your current target, then tag, say, four or five more monsters that you will autotarget after that one is defeated. Action queue would be nifty too, line up spells or job abilities to use and have that visible somewhere; basically the same as throwing a few actions with <wait x> tokens between them into a macro, but visible somewhere and able to be modified on the fly.

Characters should always be facing the monster they're fighting unless the player decides they shouldn't be, that's a hill I'll readily die on. Lock-on should automatically face the character toward the monster they're locked onto, and if it's within melee range that should always be enough to attack it. Maybe have this only work within, say, 4 yalms of the target, so if there is an actual legitimate reason for a monster to move it's a bit more of a disruption.

Maybe add a three second delay before a character puts their weapons away, during which time if the player targets another monster they skip the draw weapons and engage animation? That's clunky and really slows the pace of large battles and it's kind of silly (imagine being surrounded by skeletons, defeating one, and brushing your hands off, putting your weapons away, and saying "well, glad that's over with.") Auto-engage sort of does that, if you're facing a monster that's already trying to fight you, but... I think we can do better.

Maybe make spellcasting more agile by giving spells a chance to be interrupted when you move, based on how far you go? Or make moving cancel the spell outright, rather than letting it run the whole casting time before being interrupted?

[Irimi]

Sadly, I do not think it would be feasible in today's market. The core base is aging.

From a business perspective the game itself is not designed to retain newer or returning players that haven't already established themselves. Suffice to say most gaming today is quick and short. FFXI's main issue is time. Most players that spend do not have 9hr's a day to play as they did back in Era. I know the biggest reason i could not get friends to play cited was they didn't want to invest the time the game demands, and from what i have seen the developers do not want to fix the core problems with Retail XI. The game makes most korean MMO's tame.
What FFXIV did right that XI continues to do wrong comes down to one thing accessability. FFXIV makes it so you can achieve things in a reasonable time. FFXI in endgame tends to bottleneck certain area's (e.x. Voidwatch, Mythic.) Newer players will run into a sheer cliff/mountain

Do not mistake, I think the grind is fine. Aspects of the game just leads ripe to people just running into burnout.

Remake would be hard without changing the core aspect of the grind. REMA would have to be reworked from the ground up. After all, even I am hitting my limit while trying to farm the 100M gil I need just to complete Empy dagger. I am looking at other jobs to and just shaking my head.

I love XI, even so much more than XIV, I was disappointed when the Remake got cancelled. SE would have to find a happy medium for the old people we have become and new youth. I would hope there is a future chance for it, but not sure without them making drastic changes to retail. Honestly, I think they should of worked to re-release it back to consoles to revitalize the game.

[Dihlyte]

Honestly, personally, the only things I would change.

1.) Fix the game so it’s more playable.

-Gamepad useable without needing to be plugged in.

-Fix the camera so it doesn’t bounce off the walls.

2.) Fix the game so that trusts and enemies do not “get inside” of the player so that you can always “see” the enemy to perform a weapon skill. (And trusts don’t sit and spin on top of your character.)


3.) Make the UI 100% customizable.

-Everything needs an option to be turned off and can auto-hide.

-Damage numbers should be able to be adjusted so you only see your numbers popping up, including auto-attacks.

-Allow me to turn off any “indicators” or “telegraphs” as well as “New Challenge” text, and sound, and revert it to the chat log only. Also allow me to turn off the glowing stuff on the floor for quest markers. (All of this stuff is okay for a person that is brand new to video games, but they are a major eye sore to me and 100% unnecessary.)


4.) Maybe (big maybe) include just a proper quest journal to keep track of where I am in a quest.

5.) An option to toggle which NPC’s offer quests, and having a quest marker. Constantly seeing a quest over a NPC’s head is also a major eye sore. But knowing which ones could be useful to everyone.

6.) Fix enemy “can’t draw weapon to attack” animation lock.

-This doesn’t really “bother” me, but it would be nice if when enemies are attacking you, you can at least always draw your weapon without having animation lock. It’s simple enough to draw your weapon while still moving then stop and draw quick before you’re overwhelmed (how I currently deal with this issue) but learning that took some time, and it is kind of silly you get locked at all from drawing your weapon.

7.) Add a crafters hall.

-A place where you can access all crafters guild items, ephemeral moogle, Mog garden monster shop, and Auction house so crafters have a central place to craft.


I think that’s it.


I enjoy everything else about the game.

I enjoy the massive REMA grinds, I appreciate how not everyone has one, I appreciate literally everything else about this game, and it’s why I enjoy it so much.

I don’t actually think they are doing a remaster or remake, just saying why I like this game over what else is offered in the current world.

If I wanted to play other “not FFXI” games I would, but I don’t cause FFXI is almost exactly what I’m looking for in a game. It’s nearly perfect.