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  1. #1
    Player radar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2024
    Posts
    31
    Character
    Niana
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    THF Lv 1

    Remove the delay on calling trusts after inviting a player

    If you invite a player to a party, you have to wait 4-5 minutes before you can summon trusts.

    Remove this, it makes people not want to group up for job points etc
    (2)

  2. #2
    Player Zenion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2021
    Posts
    250
    Character
    Zenion
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 99
    It would be nice if you at least got to see how long you had left before you could call trusts.

    There's a workaround for this if it's a problem for you specifically though: the player who invited a new party member is on Trust cooldown, not the party. Pass lead to somebody to invite a new party member, then have them pass lead back and you can pop your NPCs immediately.
    (3)

  3. #3
    Player Alhanelem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Bastok
    Posts
    10,296
    Character
    Tahngarthor
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 99
    Yeah, I think the delay is there to make things more annoying for bots- thats why the workaround still exists lol
    (0)

  4. #4
    Player Gwydion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    1,029
    Character
    Galkashield
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    THF Lv 1
    SE specifically called this delay when introducing trusts a method to avoid a "race condition". There's some technical limitation that requires the inviting player to wait 2 minutes.
    (0)
    私の言葉に悪意があるとは考えないでください。
    Please do not consider my words to be malicious.

  5. #5
    Player BobbinT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Gridania XD
    Posts
    272
    Character
    Bobbinthrdbare
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    RUN Lv 99
    Just recently found out about this limitation when cleaving on Escha-Zitah. While the other member can wait, it does felt a bit irritate. However, with reason being tech limitation, this reminds me on last night doing Incursion for Vanabout & strangely found that I can't enter instance & had to spam entry dozens of time before I could. Guess that's limitations 4 ya. ^^;
    (0)

  6. #6
    Player radar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2024
    Posts
    31
    Character
    Niana
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    THF Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    SE specifically called this delay when introducing trusts a method to avoid a "race condition". There's some technical limitation that requires the inviting player to wait 2 minutes.
    You can circumvent it by swapping leader, so it's just an annoyance. I have to send a tell to the other person, then ask them to invite me, then ask them to give me leader then call trusts. If they are a new player this is like teaching a cat to build a rocket ship.
    (2)
    Last edited by radar; 05-21-2024 at 02:41 PM.

  7. #7
    Player FaithfulWafa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    5
    Character
    Wafaa
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by radar View Post
    You can circumvent it by swapping leader, so it's just an annoyance. I have to send a tell to the other person, then ask them to invite me, then ask them to give me leader than call trusts. If they are a new player this is like teaching a cat to built a rocket ship.
    Yeah, I get it where he's coming from. The race conditions exists from the perspective of just one-player, so they can't make it shorter/faster/easier in a way that is called "deterministic". For example: In this case, should SE remove the lock-out and prevent inconsistency in how party information, is synchronized? If yes, who should they change leader to? Pick a person at random? What if it is just a part of 1 actual player? etc etc.
    (1)

  8. #8
    Player Alhanelem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Bastok
    Posts
    10,296
    Character
    Tahngarthor
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 99
    For those who don't know what's being talked about here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_condition

    Basically there is a potential issue with the trust system that is dependent on seperate systems, and the delay on summoning trusts after inviting party members was implemented as a measure to prevent that issue from occuring. Presumably if you summoned trusts quickly after inviting party members, it could cause undesirable/unexpected behaviors. But it seems like changing party leaders also mitigates this issue.
    (0)
    Last edited by Alhanelem; 05-21-2024 at 04:51 PM.

  9. #9
    Player Zenion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2021
    Posts
    250
    Character
    Zenion
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Alhanelem View Post
    For those who don't know what's being talked about here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_condition

    Basically there is a potential issue with the trust system that is dependent on seperate systems, and the delay on summoning trusts after inviting party members was implemented as a measure to prevent that issue from occuring. Presumably if you summoned trusts quickly after inviting party members, it could cause undesirable/unexpected behaviors. But it seems like changing party leaders also mitigates this issue.
    It'd be interesting to hear what the actual conflict is. Seems like it would be between party member count and maximum trusts summonable, since party leader enmity is all that matters for trusts (so it's not checks against the new member on enmity tables), level sync dismisses trusts and should do a head count, so it shouldn't be there...

    Pity all the people trying to make their own version of the server backend code hate Trust (since it came out after the 75-cap days), it would be interesting to hear if their implementation has the same issue or if it's an artifact of systems being built on top of systems with no way to know what the final result would look like. I know, I know, private servers bad, I'm not endorsing the idea of them, but why pretend they don't exist when that gives you another angle to look at a programming puzzle from?
    (1)

  10. #10
    Player Catmato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    976
    Pretty sure it's the same duration as the timeout for accepting a party invite. This way you can't invite someone, wait, fill the party with trusts, then have them accept the invite to join thus making a party with too many people.

    Changing party leaders also renders previous party invites inactive which is why the workaround works.
    (3)
    It's your server.

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