How can SE make the Redmage frontline job?

[Seriha]

And in the past, I've even said I'd give up on the melee crusade if SE really took the enfeebling ball and ran with it, but they haven't. Lately we've been seeing all these juicy little stats wiggling their way into the game that we could manipulate, but all we got to speak of was Addle. I don't hate the spell, but it's as useful as Silence on a melee mob.

Something like Inhibit-Earth that'd lower a mob's Earth Attack and Defense would be peachy (and obviously spread to each element), for example. An enfeeble that messes with the fTP of mob WS is also an option. I don't really expect Amnesia, but temporarily blocking a random TP move or causing it to work against the mob could also be handy.



Anyway, I say someone's mind closed on this matter as they're basically arguing against the job concept if they're totally against melee. Dig a bit on POL, you'll see SE say that RDM's utilize their swords and magic to do their thing, and I wager that fuels Duelle's "Bait and Switch" argument. As a generalist, it's implied we can do anything passably. Realistically, we're never asked by others to dabble in that everything for reasons we've beaten to death in this thread and others, which lends itself to the thinking it's not actually passable. You can tell me to play another job, I can say I've been playing SCH since before its implementation. That's the problem. When an aspect of a job can only see the light of day when you're solo, there's a good chance it wasn't built right.

[Carth]

It'd be a start, but hardly a solution to our collective ills (The Unlucky Seven of 1) Lack of Hybrid Gear, and/or active inventory space. 2) Lack of Hybrid Foods. 3) Casting burden. 4) Role Identity. 5) Lack of native melee traits. 6) Poor native weaponskill selection. 7) Bugs or unwanted "features".).

I don't think lack of Hybrid Gear/Food is actually a problem. Lack of melee gear sure, but I don't think we should be able to full-time anything to work for all the roles needed.

Casting burden may or may not be an issue depending on what you're fighting. Ideally I doubt RDM would be meleeing any type of IT+ mobs at all. VT-wise things die too fast for anything outside of casting Dia on the mob to actually matter, which you don't need ele staves for. This falls in line with Role Identity but frankly that'll never change.

Lack of native melee traits? It's supposed to be Fast Cast, which allows more swinging time, then slapping on a DD subjob. M.Acc boost would be nice though. Poor WS selection can be easily changed by getting Sanguine Blade natively. Frankly it's a mystery why we're not on it.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I can see both side of you guys' arguments, but if RDM were absolutely not meant to be melee, then why on earth do we have a B rating in swords and daggers, have trial swords, and access to a plethora of melee gear? If melee is "something the job isn't", then please explain this to me. Explain to me why we have a job ability, Composure, which gives +10 Accuracy to melee.

If we were having this discussion in the SMN or SCH forums you'd be winning. But this isn't SMN, SCH, or even BLM. This is RDM, what was at least at some point, intended to be a melee spellcaster.

Quoted for truth, though the blind will still not see it.

And in the past, I've even said I'd give up on the melee crusade if SE really took the enfeebling ball and ran with it, but they haven't. Lately we've been seeing all these juicy little stats wiggling their way into the game that we could manipulate, but all we got to speak of was Addle. I don't hate the spell, but it's as useful as Silence on a melee mob.

And that WHM are getting in the next cap, so we once more have no enfeebles to be the "enfeebling" job.

As it stands RDM is in no shape or form unique, not even a little. RDM is a failure of a job that if they really have no interest of fixing, they should just remove.

If you really want to see how RDM should have been look to what they've made BLU recently. I mean BLU's can do anything and everything better than RDM, balanced I think not.

Better Healer's
Better DD's
Better Enfeebler's
Better Enhancer's
Better Nuker's

Sorry, if people think that's balanced a wall is waiting for your head to be slammed into, I get RDM is Jack of all traits, master of none.. But RDM isn't even average in any field let alone capable in them.

And this is the reason why, come next update, unless drastic change comes I will not be levelling RDM further.

[Supersun]

Here's the thing that really cements the argument for not having RDM melee. If you are meleeing, you are not using your ACC/Potency staves.

You are aware that those staves in NO way affect the potency of our enfeebles. All the staves do is make our enfeebles more accurate.

And really, if the enfeeble can actually land assuming the monster is not immune, a Rdm can probably land it virtually naked.

Even if for some reason you need additional accuracy to land a spell. It'll be just as effective to just swap some Mnd gear for Macc since you are probably casting in a near full potency set anyway, and unless losing an additional 2% on your slow is the difference between a clean utsu cast and an interrupt there should really be no practical difference between the 2.

So can we get over the 2004 argument that we rely on staves because last I checked I haven't actually "needed" a staff to land anything that I was going to melee on since like Robber Crabs in my 50s.

[Duelle]

Because you're basically asking for that in inverse... And yet you can't seem to find anything wrong with your request? Really? (Credit to Duelle however, for actually taking a logical step in the right direction with the comment about stances.)

No step was taken, since it was there all along (I even gave a rough idea of how that would work in the other RDM melee thread). I've always been perfectly fine with restrictions and other things coming into play to maintain job balance while giving the melee camp what it wants. And steps taken to ensure the backrow RDMs remain virtually the same through similar restrictions and mechanics. I doubt any of us are asking for fencer-themed dual wield, sanguine blade, self-cast double attack and all that thinking that would not come as part of a larger set of changes.

You are aware that those staves in NO way affect the potency of our enfeebles. All the staves do is make our enfeebles more accurate.

Indeed. There's also that wonderful thing called stat conversion when all else fails. Have MAcc be derived from a percentage of total melee Acc while in melee and you wouldn't need to worry about MAcc when front-lining. Could probably do something similar for nukes, but I haven't putzed around with the idea enough.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

You are aware that those staves in NO way affect the potency of our enfeebles. All the staves do is make our enfeebles more accurate.

And really, if the enfeeble can actually land assuming the monster is not immune, a Rdm can probably land it virtually naked.

Even if for some reason you need additional accuracy to land a spell. It'll be just as effective to just swap some Mnd gear for Macc since you are probably casting in a near full potency set anyway, and unless losing an additional 2% on your slow is the difference between a clean utsu cast and an interrupt there should really be no practical difference between the 2.

So can we get over the 2004 argument that we rely on staves because last I checked I haven't actually "needed" a staff to land anything that I was going to melee on since like Robber Crabs in my 50s.

And there is another fault of SE's, RDM has no native staff skill, they should therefore not wear Staves, but SE made the best magical damage/accuracy weapons a staff.

[Bigboy]

I can see both side of you guys' arguments, but if RDM were absolutely not meant to be melee, then why on earth do we have a B rating in swords and daggers, have trial swords, and access to a plethora of melee gear? If melee is "something the job isn't", then please explain this to me. Explain to me why we have a job ability, Composure, which gives +10 Accuracy to melee.

If we were having this discussion in the SMN or SCH forums you'd be winning. But this isn't SMN, SCH, or even BLM. This is RDM, what was at least at some point, intended to be a melee spellcaster.

WHM have always had Hexa and a B+ skill in club. Clearly they were always meant to be superior DPS. Now the reason this argument doesn't even come up in the other job boards you mentioned is because they all realize what they are good at. RDM have always had this deficiency. People have been trying to say it should be "Fixed" and SE tosses you a bone every now and then for melee, but the truth is, they only think you should melee when solo. Composure kind of highlights this. Increased recasts don't matter out of party, but if you are trying to heal, or stun, or keep a bunch of mobs slept, having all your recasts increased by 25% really sucks.

When we were given the option to melee, it was never intended to be great. It was intended to be an alternative to sleep nuking. RDM in FFXI is kinda viewed like a secret agent(Do the AF). Physically capable, but not a soldier.

Every single argument that they intended to make RDM a front line fighter are BS. The most obvious reason is because after 8 years, it still isn't.

[Neisan_Quetz]

After getting boon Whm can reasonably frontline melee. And as it stands, do better than a non CDC Rdm.

[Duelle]

When we were given the option to melee, it was never intended to be great. It was intended to be an alternative to sleep nuking. RDM in FFXI is kinda viewed like a secret agent(Do the AF). Physically capable, but not a soldier.

I'm surprised you thought to bring up Rainemard. Rainemard was a guy that stuck his nose where it didn't belong and got him quartered and stuffed in a box. That AF quest line was less about Red Mage and more about Rainemard.

Since you brought up the super RDM (he doesn't spam cures, haste and refresh in campaign, by the way), there's a thread on the JP forums about how they want RDM to be more like Rainemard instead of, well, you know. So you could say part of the melee camp wants notable damage boosts to enspells.

And there is another fault of SE's, RDM has no native staff skill, they should therefore not wear Staves, but SE made the best magical damage/accuracy weapons a staff.

Staves being a generic mage weapon is fine. The problem is more the fact that your spells are barely passable without them at certain levels, not to mention how magic accuracy is calculated overall. Hybrids tend to suffer because having two very different accuracy stats to take into account leads to watered down itemization or design-inherent gimpness.

Since someone decided to mention our meritable enfeebles as evidence to why we aren't meant to melee, I thought of something. If SE removed Blind II, Para II, Dia III, Bio III, and Phalanx II from meritable abilities, gave those to us baseline (quested like the teleport scrolls would be nice...) and (personal fantasy alert) condensed the poorly-thought out elemental affinities and filled those empty slots with new merits, would anyone here throw a fit? >.>

[Seriha]

Every single argument that they intended to make RDM a front line fighter are BS. The most obvious reason is because after 8 years, it still isn't.

Which is what gets people calling you closed off. Were this all so obvious, you shouldn't feel compelled to grace us with your presence and enlighten us on how we're all wrong for no other reason than you kind of think things are how they should be. Hypocrite much? What gives your opinion any more merit than our own?

The moment a MMO ceases to evolve, by nature, the very things within it, is the moment it dies. To many, RDM died long ago under the 75 cap. Neglecting it won't revive it. Playing another job won't make us feel like we didn't waste our time leveling, chasing gear, or putting up with all the petty player politics so readily displayed here. After all, everyone knows how to play RDM, but I'll be damned if you find many willing to do it. Even from the purely caster perspective, RDM's growth 76+ has been minimal, which has left us little to look forward to with these updates.

Is Thunder IV and Gain-STR/DEX/INT enough to tide you over from 91-99? Hint: Two of those could be considered meager melee buffs, and thus useless to the eyes of the rest of the FFXI populace. I know I'm not happy with this future. For all we know, 95 will bring another WS we can't use. There's no promise of new enfeebles. We definitely have no faith that our melee sets will catch up with others. And for those who are already leagues ahead of us now in their specific categories, they're only going to get better with their own new stuff.

So, in part, we're looking for drastic measures. To what end? Well, it could be melee, it could be enhancing, or it could be enfeebling. I feel like RDM's already too far behind the 8-ball to bump up party enhancement, and that's arguably the territory of BRD, COR, and SMN. Enfeebles will still be largely unwanted for casual play since mobs that die in 15-30s don't need a full spread cast on them (Nor would we have the time to unless we started getting dual debuffs or some Bad Breath equivalent). Auras have been one of the more fascinating possibilities, be they tied to buffs or debuffs, but this concept doesn't automatically encourage melee, but instead just changes where the RDM might stand in a fight. The closer we "have" to be to melees, the more incentive you could wiggle in for slapping on some melee gear and helping out there, too. We still have to get over the hurdle of damage relative to TP fed, though. And as I said, if you don't do that via damage, you absolutely have to do it through utility.