[dev1010] Spirits

[Alhanelem]

any stat bonus, no matter how trivial > lowering MP cost of spirits. Spirits are garbage, no matter what. Making them cheaper doesn't make them better.

Uhm, you couldn't be more wrong.

You're the one who couldnt be more wrong. You're right that avatar attack merits don't do much. Avatar accuracy, on the other hand, does a lot more, as does Avatar Magic Attack, which has a MAJOR effect and summoning skill has no effect here. However, any stat bonus, no matter how trivial > lowering MP cost of spirits. Spirits are garbage, no matter what. Making them cheaper doesn't make them better.

Pet magic accuracy does nothing as well. I've had merits in it, and my spells were as resisted as always. Summoning over skill helps more, and again is the way to go.

you're doing something wrong. I had a horrible land rate for Thunderstorm against Einherjar Odin; After meriting magic accuracy, they were landing significantly more. Summoning skill is icing on the cake, not a substitute. You should have both, especially given that 3 magic accuracy is pretty clearly > 1 skill over cap.

any stat bonus, no matter how trivial > lowering MP cost of spirits. Spirits are garbage, no matter what. Making them cheaper certainly doesn't make them better.

I'll keep saying that until you realize it.

[Korpg]

With gear, you can overcome the 5 merits needed for physical/magical accuracy to make avatars a lot more effective than before.

Which makes Att/M.Att merits much much much more useful.

[Alhanelem]

With gear, you can overcome the 5 merits needed for physical/magical accuracy to make avatars a lot more effective than before.

Which makes Att/M.Att merits much much much more useful.

Agreed, acc is much less important than it used to be. But the fact still remains that any other group 1 merit > spirit perp cost.

[Malamasala]

Agreed, acc is much less important than it used to be. But the fact still remains that any other group 1 merit > spirit perp cost.

Keep telling yourself that. There are studies and tests done on the subject that shows that they are useless.

I've run a very basic test myself on this.
STR atma -> slight damage increase
Attack atma -> hardly noticable increase
STR+attack atma -> some damage increase

My theory is that avatars have too low STR to benefit from attack bonus. Basically their existing attack allows them to hit damage cap... which is low due to being BLMs with the STR of a BLM. Increasing STR makes your attack uncapped, so it can hit harder, but not guaranteed to. Raising both is the only solid choice.

If anyone want to seriously find out, they can do more tests. I have a good enough indication that attack isn't worth it to not bother with collecting such gear.

[GlobalVariable]

As long as the actions of the spirits are random, these will forever be used only as a battery. Should just rename the scrolls to "duracell pact: element"...

[Alhanelem]

I'm surprised you haven't suggested to melee the mob as a SMN yet.

I wasn't going to comment again, but this did it for me. You say this as if it's something that should be seen as taboo or not allowed. If you've invested the time in it and gotten appropriate gear, it's not just possible, it's very strong.

//I have the empyrean staff- and full merits in staff skill. And seriously, it's one of the easiest empyreans to get- The item trials are ONLY for staff, so you never have competition for it, and since 95% of the time those tusks and fangs are hitting the floor when anyone fights those NMs, you can probably get them for free/cheap from those groups even if you don't have an LS to farm pops with.

While you're busy telling people they can't melee on summoner, I'm pushing out melee DoT comparable with other 2H weapons in abyssea- that plus 6k+ (or much more under certain circumstances) predator claws.
LOLmeleeSMN? I think not. The stigma associated with this is created by closed minded players who simply label summoner a "mage" and say "mages can't melee."

I cant help but laugh at anyone doing magian staves for perpetuation cost- You don't even need perp on the weapon slot to get free avatars anymore. You don't need an empyrean staff, but Soulscourge is basically the best "normal" staff for SMN, and it's not difficult to get.

There are situations where I like to make use of the magical end of SMN, maximizing maginess and using the elemental BPs, which can also pump out very high damage- there are a number of NMs and fights where this is an ideal strategy. I am open to all play styles- and so should everyone else be.

//Normally I dislike Dallas with a passion. But the melee summoner playstyle is sound and functional and while I disagree with him on most subjects, I don't disagree with this.

[Korpg]

I wasn't going to comment again, but this did it for me. You say this as if it's something that should be seen as taboo or not allowed. If you've invested the time in it and gotten appropriate gear, it's not just possible, it's very strong.

//I have the empyrean staff- and full merits in staff skill. And seriously, it's one of the easiest empyreans to get- The item trials are ONLY for staff, so you never have competition for it, and since 95% of the time those tusks and fangs are hitting the floor when anyone fights those NMs, you can probably get them for free/cheap from those groups even if you don't have an LS to farm pops with.

While you're busy telling people they can't melee on summoner, I'm pushing out melee DoT comparable with other 2H weapons in abyssea- that plus 6k+ (or much more under certain circumstances) predator claws.
LOLmeleeSMN? I think not. The stigma associated with this is created by closed minded players who simply label summoner a "mage" and say "mages can't melee."

I cant help but laugh at anyone doing magian staves for perpetuation cost- You don't even need perp on the weapon slot to get free avatars anymore. You don't need an empyrean staff, but Soulscourge is basically the best "normal" staff for SMN, and it's not difficult to get.

There are situations where I like to make use of the magical end of SMN, maximizing maginess and using the elemental BPs, which can also pump out very high damage- there are a number of NMs and fights where this is an ideal strategy. I am open to all play styles- and so should everyone else be.

//Normally I dislike Dallas with a passion. But the melee summoner playstyle is sound and functional and while I disagree with him on most subjects, I don't disagree with this.

I don't mind if anyone else melees as their SMN. By all means, go for it.

But telling everyone that they are gimp by NOT meleeing on their SMN, thats what gets me.

Besides, the way Dallas states it, he HAS to melee to keep his avatar out. His gear that he has posted on another thread (I believe its that pet one of his) requires him to keep meleeing just to get MP back from perp cost and BP usage. I already argued why he shouldn't melee in a group setting, so I won't do so here.

I hope that you have a standby set that would let you not have to melee to keep MP up for the instances that meleeing on SMN would not be beneficial for you or the group you are in.

[Dallas]

We should not let Korpg derail this thread with melee SMN. I know of at least 3 active threads he could visit without getting this thread locked.

BTW, gratz on your weapon.

[Alhanelem]

But telling everyone that they are gimp by NOT meleeing on their SMN, thats what gets me.

Don't worry, that's not me, and that's where I become at odds with him. There are many fun and effective ways to utilize summoner. The only real problem right now is summoner in gneneral has been really minimized by the current "wait for proc/TH buildup then kill" metagame.

Besides, the way Dallas states it, he HAS to melee to keep his avatar out. His gear that he has posted on another thread

Outside of abyssea it might be more necessary, but inside, with your inflated stats and DD atmas, you can keep your perp and refresh on and still perform just fine. Granted, you can take it off and probably do more damage, but it does create a sense of urgency in maintaining your MP- It's still not super difficult, because Myrkr gives so much MP back and then ups your DoT, but if you're in trouble, it could make the difference between dying and not.

[Korpg]

Don't worry, that's not me, and that's where I become at odds with him. There are many fun and effective ways to utilize summoner. The only real problem right now is summoner in gneneral has been really minimized by the current "wait for proc/TH buildup then kill" metagame.

That is, if you are in a party thats doing procs. Usually when I'm doing a NM as SMN with a group, its with my friends in the shell, and I already switched from WAR doing red proc and we are just pet killing. Most of the time, we do our procs as we kill, but some mobs it seems better and safer to pet kill. But if we want a certain proc, I'll come as WAR or BLM and proc it, switch to SMN real quick, and help kill it for drops.

At least, thats the way I do it. People are different, let them do whatever they want.

Outside of abyssea it might be more necessary, but inside, with your inflated stats and DD atmas, you can keep your perp and refresh on and still perform just fine. Granted, you can take it off and probably do more damage, but it does create a sense of urgency in maintaining your MP- It's still not super difficult, because Myrkr gives so much MP back and then ups your DoT, but if you're in trouble, it could make the difference between dying and not.

Dallas has already stated that he doesn't use Minkin at all, and that using Minkin does nothing to both the avatar and player.....yeah....

He states that damage is better for emp staff to have Regain atmas on, including Sea Daughter. Because the Slow+ offsets Haste gear and Hastaga.....yeah....but Regain is better than Refresh for a SMN.....yeah.....