[dev1010] Job Adjustments

[Catsby]

The exp loss thing may be a slap in the face, but Tranquil Heart is a spit in the grave of RDM tanking . . .

Maybe, but back in the day there was no clear vision for each of the job. The community essentially designed the jobs for whatever roles they needed. Now the developers are tapping into that and trying to refine each job. For a classed based game with 20 different classes it doesn't make much sense to have a class that fills every roll.

[Tamarsamar]

Maybe, but back in the day there was no clear vision for each of the job. The community essentially designed the jobs for whatever roles they needed. Now the developers are tapping into that and trying to refine each job. For a classed based game with 20 different classes it doesn't make much sense to have a class that fills every roll.

What are you talking about? There's already a job with every player-available Roll: it's called Corsair.

In all seriousness, though, myself, like many other Red Mages I'm sure (excluding those who simply chose to not level White Mage because they were still in the ToAU days) leveled the job because it was advertised as a little bit of everything, and while I understand that community is important, I don't think it should be so powerful as to mandate a bait-and-switch like that . . .

[AtrixWolfe]

What are you talking about? There's already a job with every player-available Roll: it's called Corsair.

In all seriousness, though, myself, like many other Red Mages I'm sure (excluding those who simply chose to not level White Mage because they were still in the ToAU days) leveled the job because it was advertised as a little bit of everything, and while I understand that community is important, I don't think they should be so powerful as to mandate a bait-and-switch like that . . .

Aren't rdm still the best enfeeblers in the game? They are more a niche healer now, and abby makes refresh not so cool anymore, but it is migrating to a favorite subjob choice for many casters. Plus they still solo stuff pretty well. And I have some inkling that there will be 90-99 as post abyssea wherein refresh will be valued again.

[Tamarsamar]

Aren't rdm still the best enfeeblers in the game? They are more a niche healer now, and abby makes refresh not so cool anymore, but it is migrating to a favorite subjob choice for many casters. Plus they still solo stuff pretty well. And I have some inkling that there will be 90-99 as post abyssea wherein refresh will be valued again.

Don't get me wrong, I love the whole "come for the versatility, stay for the Enfeebling" bit. I actually wouldn't add much more to the job at all! I'm just saying that Tranquil Heart is excessive, and we probably should've gotten Fencer before Crits got their nerf. >.>

[Supersun]

Do RDMs have the highest enfeebling skill in the game, yeah.

Are RDMs the best enfeebles in the game...define "best."

Not that it matters anyway since enfeeble immunity on anything worth enfeebling is becoming the new norm.

[AtrixWolfe]

Do RDMs have the highest enfeebling skill in the game, yeah.

Are RDMs the best enfeebles in the game...define "best."

Not that it matters anyway since enfeeble immunity on anything worth enfeebling is becoming the new norm.

Well, while you may not be able to stick the big ones on the important ones, paralyze and slow still work on most everything. I thought too the other part of rdm enfeebling was the speed at which they did it due to fastcast. Imo this is just is for making tanking/enmity control easier for tanks


I guess I see it less as a rdm/whm/sch buff and more as an indirect pld/thf/nin/dnc buff

[Carth]

Aren't rdm still the best enfeeblers in the game? They are more a niche healer now, and abby makes refresh not so cool anymore, but it is migrating to a favorite subjob choice for many casters. Plus they still solo stuff pretty well. And I have some inkling that there will be 90-99 as post abyssea wherein refresh will be valued again.

Pre-Tier2 merits, that A+ Enfeebling was a massive joke. Thanks to Slow II and Paralyze II however, yes, we are the best enfeeblers. However, Enfeebling can only get you so far. Admittedly, Slow II is godly, but Paralyze II has always been up in the air pre-Saboteur.

I do have to address one thing.

And I have some inkling that there will be 90-99 as post abyssea wherein refresh will be valued again.

Out of all the things, this is what most RDMs don't want. Throughout the entirety of RDM's lifespan in FFXI it has always been defined by Refresh. Refresh made us valuable healer in exp parties, Refresh made us better than WHMs, Refresh made us powerful soloists, and most of all Refresh (and Convert, admittedly) has made the community and the developers fear any update that ever came our way, even for DD purposes.

Refresh doesn't make the job "just fine", but that's been our niche ever since 2005. If we are meant to be the strongest enfeeblers, then the developers need to stop twiddling our thumbs and give us more enfeebles, not something as idiotic as tranquil heart (due to the many roles RDM can take up, it shouldn't have their native enmity messed with at all).

[Duelle]

Refresh doesn't make the job "just fine", but that's been our niche ever since 2005. If we are meant to be the strongest enfeeblers, then the developers need to stop twiddling our thumbs and give us more enfeebles, not something as idiotic as tranquil heart (due to the many roles RDM can take up, it shouldn't have their native enmity messed with at all).

Unless they're out to nerf what remains of Red Mage tanking.

[Tamarsamar]

Unless they're out to nerf what remains of Red Mage tanking.

Nothing remains of Red Mage tanking right now. To repeat what I said earlier, all this does is spits in its grave.

Well, that, and the grave of PLD/RDM (which they killed with equal impudence).

[Seriha]

Maybe, but back in the day there was no clear vision for each of the job. The community essentially designed the jobs for whatever roles they needed. Now the developers are tapping into that and trying to refine each job. For a classed based game with 20 different classes it doesn't make much sense to have a class that fills every roll.

This is a bit of a catch 22 for RDM. While I can understand the concept of SE catering to styles of play the players have come up with for jobs (NIN is basically the prime example), RDM didn't so much have the luxury of that choice.

Physically, it's a no-brainer the job is lacking. Most of it's good melee gear was sub-par relative to other specialists under the 75 cap, and most of it is still "the best" today, minus a few tweaks. Pair this with lower skill caps and WS restrictions on a weapon class that wasn't really known for big damage to begin with (sword), and it's unsurprising people either never bothered with melee or shunned melee enthusiasts.

Magically, some might try to peg enfeebling as our bread and butter, but not really. If this was something SE truly wanted to embrace, there is a far greater variety of enfeebles they could give RDM. Addle was a start in this direction, but if I'm not mistaken, the DATs show WHM will be getting it eventually. All things considered, a WHM/RDM can enfeeble comparably to a RDM. Meanwhile, BLUs have a number of AoE debuffs, some currently unique to the job.

In terms of elemental magic, back in the day RDM's dealt with both magic accuracy issues on difficult mobs, and during the leveling process, being rather behind BLM when it came to tier ups. /SCH helped the former issue tremendously, and parts of the empyrean set are certainly good nuking pieces, but the job's still third rung under BLM and SCH, maybe even worse if you consider the potential of Automatons or BLUs with Charged Whisker solo cleaving.

Since people didn't want RDMs for lackluster melee and basically preferred BLMs for nuking (RDMs couldn't MB distortion with Blizz 2 until 55), all that really left was support. Unsurprisingly, people desperate for EXP put up with it, as no matter the MMO it's often a thankless and stressful task that other players tend to avoid. Eventually the idea that Convert and Refresh made RDM a "better healer than WHM" started circulating around, devoid of circumstance, and suddenly any problems people DID have with the job were blown off because people still invited it to heal. Add a dash of soloing antics exploiting Bind/Gravity/Zoning/Pinning, and we went from that to overpowered.

It's unfortunate it took basically every other job getting so far ahead for people to start thinking, "Hey, maybe RDM could use some attention..." but for those of who've been here all along, we're not at all surprised about this state of affairs. Of course, they'll all have varied ideas for repair, some as mundane as simply doling out Cure V... which just begs to repeat the job's position prior to Abyssea without offering any sense of diversity or charm. In short, those crackers are WHMs in denial.

Seems like Final Fantasy XI and XIV are going towards what most games now and days become, Super-Easy Mode. If people don't lose experience till 30, they are gonna whine more for high Tier Raises later levels because they got spoiled on no exp lost for a third of their levels. And it helps getting into a game when there are consequences like losing experience, because then it makes players more dedicated to get that exp back and beyond. If the game is too easy, then no one is going to bother playing it. It might not be Super-Easy Mode yet, but its going toward that direction, with 30-99 Abyssea leveling and now no experience lost from 1-30.

Losing EXP has never made me go, "Damn, I wanna get it back and then some!" Perhaps there's a brief pause for reflection on why the death occurred, but that can exist without the level downs and all the other situational inconveniences surrounding death, including weaknesses.

So, drop the haughty act. Time Sinks do not equate to true difficulty.