[dev1010] Job Adjustments

[Seriha]

Only time RNG is any worse of a TP feeder than other DDs is when Barrage is ready. Considering the recent AGI change and how some of the popular gear boasts that, as well, RNG does sometimes get some indirect Subtle Blow. The biggest and legitimate gripe for the class is indeed how drawing a mob's focus winds up hurting everyone else in some manner and why the whole ranged -enmity thing really needs looked into.

[AtrixWolfe]

Only time RNG is any worse of a TP feeder than other DDs is when Barrage is ready. Considering the recent AGI change and how some of the popular gear boasts that, as well, RNG does sometimes get some indirect Subtle Blow. The biggest and legitimate gripe for the class is indeed how drawing a mob's focus winds up hurting everyone else in some manner and why the whole ranged -enmity thing really needs looked into.

Well, lets look at other jobs;

Monk and Dancer from traits get 20% reduced feeding, and have gear options
Ninja gets 25% from traits and has gear options

Thief I know has enough gear options to cap it, or very close to.

That leaves us SAM, DRK, DRG and RNG
Out of these I would loosely say:
RNG > SAM = DRG > DRK though feel free to prove me wrong.

RNG has both snapshot and rapidshot, and if you sub sam as well you have ws spam. IMO the high delay combined with the fact we have an instant attack occasionally, and the fact we feed up to 9 shots with a barrage, instantly, is crazy.
Sam has ws spam.
DRG's ws's are multi-hit, and has jumps
and DRK has spells.

I am not entirely sure on itemization for all jobs listed here, but I do know for ranger any subtle blow gear is extremely rare. On the other hand, we do lend a bit of enmity control by not being required to be healed when mobs use most AoE attacks.

I really think that with a community that becomes more focused on proper enmity control via +enmity and -enmity gear on respective party members, these enmity issues are a non issue. It's just you can't get anyone to actually do it.

You have already heard how capping -enmity let me basically open house when a thf was evasion tanking and not even doing that great of damage. Imagine that thf was doing great damage and had +enmity gear. And imagine there was a second thief in the party to help stick enmity on the thief. I guess I just see complaining about it to SE as not a good thing when there is still things players can do to make it better. I guess I feel we are not playing to our potential because it is not cool to do so. I guess you make of it what you will. It's just, when I mentioned this to a good player in game they yelled at me asking why I'd use an atma on enmity, that it was stupid. It's not stupid if it allows you, in the end, to do more damage. That snoll nm died so much quicker because I could combo the heck out of it with no fear. -enmity and +enmity too work off percentages, meaning the more dmg you do, the more that gear is effective on you, because the bigger enmity differences it makes. Meaning if that thief was more well geared and did more damage, that enmity gear would count for even more. And if they use accomplice I'm certain it applies there as well. With the potential for a tank to DOUBLE their enmity I do not see why more tanks don't have a full enmity set. As when it comes down to it even the lack of some defense or evasion matters less than making sure that the beefiest target is the one receiving the damage. RNG has zero defensive skills. If I get hit, I can die in 3 crits. Or one really nasty skill, or attack round. To compliment that we have awesome damage *potential* as well as the ability to deliver that damage from back row. Plus, we have ALOT of -enmity gear options now, way more than we ever had before. Me thinks this is why SE is not addressing enmity with ranger. It isn't necessary, it would make it easier, sure but necessary? I don't think it is. Setting the community mindset to deal with this however, to make what is possible done.. rare probably, if it happens at all.

On one hand I'm glad SE opened up discussions like this. On the other, I fear it becoming like WoW where they let the community bully them into what they want whether it is good, bad, or another thing; there has to be some balance I hope they find the high road. Unfortunately I think if they do it will end up frustrating many players because no one likes good compromise.

[Soundwave]

Disappointing for the job updates...not so much about the job itself getting update but....I think it quite a tease to be sectioning the job updates, when we know and you know the players really look forward to these, is there anything else u can tell us about future job updates?

This also should go in consideration with all job forums considering there has yet to be a single post from the C-reps team. (Not counting the first sticky post)

I think we don't expect exact details but more so the direction you guys are taking with the jobs as of now?

[PizzaTheHut]

I hope they do something about bullet material already. Seriously 20k a stack? I'm sure it'll go down after server merges.

[Seriha]

Yes, well, I'm also tired of how every MMO I look into, I see people whining about how they don't want whatever to be "easy mode" because WoW did X, things are "supposed" to be rare, some guy they'll never ever want to play with anyway is hurting their game by not "earning" something, people with no lives should be better rewarded, or whatever bullsquat excuse is played. As is, death carries the following penalties even without EXP loss:

1) Time spent waiting for a raise is potential loot and EXP not gained.
2) Waiting on Weakness is similar to 1, though partially offset if you're a non-critical role in a group.
3) If solo and 1 isn't possible, further time is lost if returning to the area you died in.
4) You potentially hamper quest/mission progress.
5) If solo, you'll obviously have to start over again on a specific mob if that was your goal. This can be tied to 4.
6) If you were after a contested monster, it might not be there when you return.

Overall, regardless of the game, it's rare the process of EXPing is what people consider fun. Making people have to do more of the things they don't enjoy is a surefire way to discontent and possible account cancellation. As juvenile as some may feel it, people have quit over the EXP loss mechanic. It made classes like THF hate themselves back in the day as popular sacrificial pullers in Dynamis, only to never get invited to EXP later. PLDs went through similar simply tanking. Nowadays this isn't so much a concern since endgame EXP is certainly more superfluous, but that generosity isn't as prevalent in the lowbie levels. In general, how you EXP doesn't exactly reflect how you would behave in an endgame environment, either. Ever hear talk of how "Campaign noobs" sucked at their jobs because they were meleeing mages or wearing some kind of non-standard gear? Well, that's kind of replaced by Abyssea leeches today, but the moment any mob does more than just auto-attack/TP move/cast spells once engaged like with EXP, you'll need to learn on the fly.

[Kurosen]

Yes, well, I'm also tired of how every MMO I look into, I see people whining about how they don't want whatever to be "easy mode" because WoW did X, things are "supposed" to be rare, some guy they'll never ever want to play with anyway is hurting their game by not "earning" something, people with no lives should be better rewarded, or whatever bullsquat excuse is played. As is, death carries the following penalties even without EXP loss:

1) Time spent waiting for a raise is potential loot and EXP not gained.
2) Waiting on Weakness is similar to 1, though partially offset if you're a non-critical role in a group.
3) If solo and 1 isn't possible, further time is lost if returning to the area you died in.
4) You potentially hamper quest/mission progress.
5) If solo, you'll obviously have to start over again on a specific mob if that was your goal. This can be tied to 4.
6) If you were after a contested monster, it might not be there when you return.

Overall, regardless of the game, it's rare the process of EXPing is what people consider fun. Making people have to do more of the things they don't enjoy is a surefire way to discontent and possible account cancellation. As juvenile as some may feel it, people have quit over the EXP loss mechanic. It made classes like THF hate themselves back in the day as popular sacrificial pullers in Dynamis, only to never get invited to EXP later. PLDs went through similar simply tanking. Nowadays this isn't so much a concern since endgame EXP is certainly more superfluous, but that generosity isn't as prevalent in the lowbie levels. In general, how you EXP doesn't exactly reflect how you would behave in an endgame environment, either. Ever hear talk of how "Campaign noobs" sucked at their jobs because they were meleeing mages or wearing some kind of non-standard gear? Well, that's kind of replaced by Abyssea leeches today, but the moment any mob does more than just auto-attack/TP move/cast spells once engaged like with EXP, you'll need to learn on the fly.

You know now that I think about it. I don't know what I'm really complaining about. Maybe its just hatred for how easy Abyssea is, When you make 30-99 in about 12 hours (or something like that, I haven't tried it) it just seems no one learns their job, then cram the server with people who don't know what they are doing, making looking to do quests and missions harder on certain servers if you don't have any friends anymore....but I digress, I'm getting off topic

[Rezeak]

Erg it's not that clear cut....

I really don't want to do the maths on it so i'll try and keep it basic...

Mobs gain (Base TP + 3)*(subtle blow mod)

It's the +3 that is the reason that MNKs DNCs NINs need subtle blow otherwise mobs would gain crazy tp.

Also jobs that use two handed weapons and store tp to get certain hit build feed the lowest amount of tp to a mob per 100tp.

RNG is pretty much the same too.

Any comparing DD for feeding tp is really dumb since there all really close when you work it out for how much tp you feed to a mob every 100 tp.

Either way it's more to do with how many DDs u have on mob than what the DDs.
And it depends a hell of alot more on how much haste/snapshot/rapid shot a DD has on than what job it is.

[AtrixWolfe]

Erg it's not that clear cut....

I really don't want to do the maths on it so i'll try and keep it basic...

Mobs gain (Base TP + 3)*(subtle blow mod)

It's the +3 that is the reason that MNKs DNCs NINs need subtle blow otherwise mobs would gain crazy tp.

Also jobs that use two handed weapons and store tp to get certain hit build feed the lowest amount of tp to a mob per 100tp.

RNG is pretty much the same too.

Any comparing DD for feeding tp is really dumb since there all really close when you work it out for how much tp you feed to a mob every 100 tp.

Either way it's more to do with how many DDs u have on mob than what the DDs.
And it depends a hell of alot more on how much haste/snapshot/rapid shot a DD has on than what job it is.

See things like this is why I really am starting to despise posting any input at all.
A) The rest of my post was ignored
B) You're basically saying something not true in a very condescending tone for what I can only gather is the sake of it.

You're basically saying "Subtle blow doesn't matter. All DD's are the same". I'm sorry but everything in existence points to the contrary. For one, observations I have to contrary. Try having two Thieves hit on a mob. Then switch to one Thief and one Ranger and notice the HUGE difference in tp feeding. If you think 25% reduction in the tp given is equivalent to zero... lol at you. I've seen it's effects and it's huge.

No other job that I know of, can just basically get zero delay randomly in attack rounds. Haste? Sure. No other job has something like barrage either. In any case, math is useless if you don't do it right or have improper premise.

Whatever, maybe one day I will find a community that can responsibly discuss things, without having a show and tell for their epeen size, but obviously it isn't this one, here, or now. I had high hopes yet again, for some stupid reason, I guess have fun QQing about jobs that were over useful forever (RDM), and about updates that along with enmity upgrades in gear, and atma make them pretty useful (RNG), and don't focus on other things like jobs that were undervalued for long periods of time (WHM) are coming into full use again.. I get the feeling people are just forming little popularity cliques, all this just pretty much makes me not want to input anything at all, leaving SE to the mercy of your whiney salty tears... See, good input, ignored, then you focus on saying ridiculous things like "Subtle blow does not matter all". Might as well say haste doesn't haste, or defense doesn't help mitigate damage. Well, laters. It was fun while it lasted, I suppose.

[Anathiel]

What has two thumbs and loves the job adjustments? This guy.

[Urteil]

What has two thumbs and loves the job adjustments? This guy.

(o¬_¬)|"' Indeed my good chap.