[dev1010] Job Adjustments

[Seriha]

Might be best to just give up on him and never expect that answer, let alone a good one. He's been rather antagonistic toward RDM's status back on Alla in the past, so it's unsurprising to see it here.

As is, it's hard not to see where RDM falls behind compared to others.
WHM: Cura(ga)s, Esuna, Native Status Cures, Solace, Misery, AoE Boost spells, Auspice
BLM: -agas, T5s, AMs, Enmity Douse, Mana Wall, Native Aspirs, Sleepgas
Melees: The only things a RDM shouldn't lose to here are a BLM or SCH, SMN depending on how you factor the Avatar.

The above only gets worse if you start throwing procs into the picture, as RDM needs a special sub to do sword and club stuff while not even having all the dagger procs for blue. Aside from light, we're mostly 2 per game day, but that's something BLM and SCH also have covered. So, there's nothing unique going on to convince people that having a RDM around is a difference maker or, on the curative front, a liability against more difficult NMs.

Upping the job's diversity isn't a bad thing. Some of us happen to feel it could be better achieved through melee and not limiting this to just damage, but also utility. You can stomp around until you're blue in the face thinking that's how it shouldn't be, but none of that addresses the increasing homogenization of the mage jobs subbing RDM, or in SCH's case, being more like a backline RDM from the start with better tools for both support and nuking.

[Dallas]

Melees: The only things a RDM shouldn't lose to here are a BLM or SCH, SMN depending on how you factor the Avatar.

All 3 jobs use the same weapon, but only one melees. If a SMN is meleeing, you might as well assume the avatar is also meleeing. RDM loses on just the melee piece, but has more than enough utility to validate the lost damage.

RDM is the bottom of the melee totem pole. BLM, BRD, and SCH don't even come out to play.

[Supersun]

RDM is the bottom of the melee totem pole...BRD...don't even come out to play.

Actually...about that...I wouldn't be surprised with augmented Rare/Ex gear if Bard finally pulls ahead of Rdm. It's been pretty close up until now.

[blowfin]

Might be best to just give up on him and never expect that answer, let alone a good one. He's been rather antagonistic toward RDM's status back on Alla in the past, so it's unsurprising to see it here.

Wow, you really are a venomous piece of work when people don't agree with you. About all I said on Zam was "level a melee job" in response to one (1) thread out of about two thousand whining about RDM melee gear. You know what? It was probably the most sensible thing in the thread.

The thing is though, I do agree with you in part. RDM is underpowered, especially in Abyss. I think this is going to change immensely with new content though. I just think this push for MOAR RDM melee gear, if successful, will result in the job being watered down. I can't imagine any of you want that, which is why I keep getting up in this debate.

I do notice that nobody bothered to address my question either, funny how pointing bloody fingers can backfire on you sometimes. What would you have them remove from RDM to get what you want? And yes I said "remove" because RDM is extremely powerful, even if this has been dimished somewhet by Abyss.

With a great setup though the Rdm was spamming cures and riding that convert timer since that allowed the DDs to /sam and ride hassao instead of forcing them to /nin

From memory of Aht Urghan, great setups didn't work mages into the ground for an extra couple of k an hour like they were a pack of rabid dogs. In fact, a lot of RDM's would probably have turned down a party if players were insisting on /sam. Maybe a few parties allowed, and were able to keep up with people subbing SAM, but it was far from normal and the division of labor was pretty clearly much heavier for the RDM.

[Neisan_Quetz]

It hasn't been diminished by just Abyssea, it's been diminished by the level cap increase, mages getting more sources of refresh, and mages being able to sub rdm and gain access to both Refresh 1 and convert. Refresh 2 isn't necessary for a Whm to keep up healing outside, and still be a better healer. Sch is still a far better nuker and both are better at enhancing spells bar 1, Phalanx2, which Sch/Rdm can AoE the single target of. Inside Abyssea even with a melee buff, Rdm still won't be wanted for much aside addle until Whm gets it. Outside, possibly depending how big the buff is, would just make the job viable for something that 3 other jobs don't outclass it in when it comes to backline mages (1 in frontline mages).

[blowfin]

It hasn't been diminished by Abyssea, it's been diminished by the level cap increase, mages getting more sources of refresh, and mages being able to sub rdm and gain access to both Refresh 1 and convert. Refresh 2 isn't necessary for a Whm to keep up healing outside, and still be a better healer. Sch is still a far better nuker and both are better at enhancing spells bar 1, Phalanx2, which Sch/Rdm can AoE the single target of. Inside Abyssea even with a melee buff, Rdm still won't be wanted for much aside addle until Whm gets it. Outside, possibly depending how big the buff is, would just make the job viable for something that 3 other jobs don't outclass it in when it comes to backline mages (1 in frontline mages).

So RDM has had what... 9 months not being the most demanded mage in the game?

[Neisan_Quetz]

And if nothing changes Rdm won't be wanted for anything bar 4 exclusive enfeebles.

[Coldbrand]

And if nothing changes Rdm won't be wanted for anything bar 4 exclusive enfeebles.

(That's too bad.)

[Catsby]

Atmas are too strong. What's the point of a support job when you can just plug support atmas into your healer.
Bosses are too poorly designed. What's the point of a support job when you can just brew a strong monster down.

[Duelle]

Sigh. I figured people would eventually drop the RDM thing, but I see that is not the case.

Atmas are too strong. What's the point of a support job when you can just plug support atmas into your healer.

Trying to make "support" the whole point of a job is not and has never been a good idea. This is why design in general eventually moved away from needing classes to specifically act as mezzers (and refresh bots in the case of FFXI) and in turn do what you just mentioned: baking certain aspects into existing roles. Being the guy that's there to only interrupt, or only sleep, or only stun, or only para/slow in the case of RDM isn't much. To those of us that know the class for its various aspects, it's certainly a downer to see only one shine through and the rest tossed to the gutter.

I do notice that nobody bothered to address my question either, funny how pointing bloody fingers can backfire on you sometimes. What would you have them remove from RDM to get what you want? And yes I said "remove" because RDM is extremely powerful, even if this has been dimished somewhet by Abyss.

So you forgot my response to your question:

I'd say RDM would need a mechanic through which to shift resources and stats. Good melee, decent & reliable enfeebling, below-average support. Good support, decent & reliable healing, below-average melee. Nuking can be made to fit somewhere in there, prefferably with 3-5 yalm range for nukes while in melee mode, but either shorter cast times or instant casts on a 1-minute cooldown. That way, you can't do everything at once on RDM by cluttering your inventory with gear.

Bolded for emphasis. A nerf to switching roles on the fly, but maintaining access to a reasonable level of versatility while on the field (I'm open to discussion on what would be considered reasonable). And yes, that's a huge part of the class as is to remove while keeping the current curebot role. The bonus comes in making a second role available and relevant outside of soloing. It's a win-win.