[dev1010] Job Adjustments

[blowfin]

In short, the reason people wanted RDM so much was because they were desperate for anyone with cures (see: SMN/WHM) and because mages were addicted to Refresh and Ballad as if it were crack. That's called inflating the value of a job through a gimmick. A bad one a that. It's what is known as bad design.

Um, no. RDM was the most efficient healer for merit parties for way more reasons than that. Hell, you're talking about mages (plural) when for the vast majority of the time, RDM and BRD could handle the demands of merits parties quite easily. Apart from that RDM was heavily desired in end game because of the excellent support and unique enfeebles it brought to the table. I feel like i'm repeating myself now though.

It's also downright scary that you'd go so far as to call mages 'addicted to refresh and ballad like crack'. Do you know why refresh and ballad were so popular? Because they improve the utility of jobs with MP quite heavily. They enabled us to do things which werent possible with more limited MP. You wanted to kill something hard in this game? RDM was just about essential (and for far more reasons than refresh, even though it does play a big part).

Refresh (and refresh II) are an incredible asset, hardly gimmicks. Once again, If you don't like applying the assets that your job brings to the table or find them tedious or boring, maybe level something else?

[Duelle]

Refresh (and refresh II) are an incredible asset, hardly gimmicks.

You seem to be unable to perceive how party dynamics work. RDM pre-refresh was overlooked because it was mediocre at pretty much everything. At the same time leveling was slow because you had to take MP breaks which means the whole party has to stop killing. Instead of doing something that wouldn't screw the job and avoided conflict between concept and practice (RDM being a melee mage vs parties desperate for MP regeneration and heals), they tossed Refresh in as a band-aid and called it a day.

A job being responsible for MP regeneration is a gimmick. A bad one when its sole value and desireability was based on that alone. You didn't invite RDM for enfeebles. You invited them because your PLD tank, your BLMs or the WHM in the group needed a way to recover MP and Bards were stupidly rare. Even SMN at one point wanted to get in on the gravy train by asking for refresh at one of the fanfest developer panels a couple of years ago. Humorously enough, that request was booed out of the room.

Note: If you need further evidence to why refresh was a horrible gimmick to stick RDM to, you need not look further than Atmas and the raising of the level cap.

Note2: Either way, I think I'm done here. I don't want to derail the thread any further. Even if on other forums it has morphed into cries of joy over the DRK changes or complaining about RNG needing more changes.

[Neisan_Quetz]

So the solution for Rdm in a party setting is level Whm/Blm/Sch/Blu? Good to know Andlynn was right then.

[blowfin]

RDM pre-refresh

Existed about 10 years ago, for a very short period in the games life span. Its probably time to let it go and stop using it as a reference point for what you think the job should be. All jobs change vastly after level 30, RDM is no different.

Again though, I would hardly call something that became an essential part of game mechanics a gimmick.

So the solution for Rdm in a party setting is level Whm/Blm/Sch/Blu? Good to know Andlynn was right then.

The solution is to show people why RDM doesnt suck. Im having a very hard time being convinced that any of you actually want to do that though.

[Supersun]

The solution is to show people why RDM doesnt suck. Im having a very hard time being convinced that any of you actually want to do that though.

How could we have been so naive. All of Dark Knights problems would have been solved if players would have just shown us that they don't suck. I mean why buff any job with that flawless logic when all you need is have the dedicated players of that job stop sucking.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The solution is to show people why RDM doesnt suck. Im having a very hard time being convinced that any of you actually want to do that though.

You still haven't answered how Rdm is useful in a party setting at all over any of the alternatives. If the only points you can bring up are useful for solo/duo, then that doesn't make the job useful now does it? especially when other jobs solo faster than Rdm can (to varying degrees).

[blowfin]

How could we have been so naive. All of Dark Knights problems would have been solved if players would have just shown us that they don't suck. I mean why buff any job with that flawless logic when all you need is have the dedicated players of that job stop sucking.

The dedicated DRKs got themselves empyrean weapons and skilled up other weapons so they could be useful for red procs if they didn't have war or want to level it. Thats the kind of thing im talking about.

However, its kind of besides the point, seeing as RDM isnt broken.

[Seriha]

Apparently having more MP equates to using it more efficiently, too. Sorry, but RDM got by using brute force in the healing game, and even that would come crashing down in heavy AoE situations. Fancy that how the most preferred EXP mobs often had non-threatening TP moves to curb that risk.

[blowfin]

Apparently having more MP equates to using it more efficiently, too. Sorry, but RDM got by using brute force in the healing game, and even that would come crashing down in heavy AoE situations. Fancy that how the most preferred EXP mobs often had non-threatening TP moves to curb that risk.

With a good setup RDM hardly needed to cure at all in bird parties. Not even sure what you're trying to get at with that. Brute force had nothing to do with it.

[Supersun]

With a good setup RDM hardly needed to cure at all in bird parties. Not even sure what you're trying to get at with that. Brute force had nothing to do with it.

With a great setup though the Rdm was spamming cures and riding that convert timer since that allowed the DDs to /sam and ride hassao instead of forcing them to /nin