[dev1010] Job Adjustments

[Neisan_Quetz]

Rdm was never meant to be a melee mage when it has the second highest combat stats of the mage jobs pre TAU what? Before Convert and Refresh Rdm was so horrible Rdm/War was a viable job combination because the players had no idea what to do with the job because it was useless.

Rdm has 4-5 "unique" enfeebles, and by 99 Whm is getting Addle leaving you with DiaIII/Slow/Para/Blind 2, enhancing magic it has 1 that isn't self target, Phalanx 2. It isn't a master support class, Whm and Sch are better support jobs than Rdm is. I don't know where you get Sch sucks from either, at 75 Sch was already better at nuking than Blm and with the Sublimation buff/more autorefresh gear/Convert from /Rdm, MP isn't an issue for them anymore. They're only not wanted right now because they can't proc as many grellow spells as Blm can.

Your final sentence is just classic, you admit people don't need need enfeebles, so why would they invite what you consider the class specializing in enfeebles (when this is debateable)?

[blowfin]

Before Convert and Refresh Rdm was so horrible Rdm/War was a viable job combination because the players had no idea what to do with the job because it was useless.

This is exactly my point. To give RDM more utility it was given more strength as a mage, not as a melee DD.

I remember quite clearly when RDM started to shift to being more of a back line job. It's right around level 30 or so. There were little things like not being able to perform an duties in a party if i got paralyzed by AOE.

Your final sentence is just classic, you admit people don't need need enfeebles, so why would they invite what you consider the class specializing in enfeebles (when this is debateable)?

I never "admitted" that anywhere. Here's the thing though. In general I think RDM is an underutilized job in Abyssea. Maybe only because the general playerbase tends to extrapolate from what's seen as optimal and therefore, RDM gets overlooked a lot. What are the strengths RDM can bring to the table at the moment though? The things i've been outlining as their strengths. Certainly not because of melee DD capability, even with CDC.

[Neisan_Quetz]

There is no extrapolation, Rdm is about as useful as Paladin inside abyssea, that is, not at all. Outside abyssea, with the additional refresh other mages have, Rdm still won't be that useful from a curing/support healing standpoint and is inferior from a nuking standpoint. What would Rdm bring to a party? 3 enfeebles that aren't needed.

[blowfin]

There is no extrapolation, Rdm is about as useful as Paladin inside abyssea, that is, not at all.

Depending on the situation a RDM in the group can prove quite useful. If you're low manning then sure, it doesn't make quite so much sense.

Outside abyssea, with the additional refresh other mages have, Rdm still won't be that useful.

I really doubt that actually, and certainly not only because of refresh. Either way, we'll see on the other side of the update.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Name one situation outside of addle (Whm is getting soon) or Phalanx 2 while cleaving Rdm is quite useful in a group setting then.

[blowfin]

Name one situation outside of addle (Whm is getting soon) or Phalanx 2 while cleaving Rdm is quite useful in a group setting then.

As an enfeebler, enhancer, backup healer. Against any number of the harder NM's in Abyss RDM is a useful Auxilliary mage if you have the bodies for it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

2/3 a second Whm or Sch would be better at, leaving enfeebles which aren't needed.

[Thelron]

This is exactly my point. To give RDM more utility it was given more strength as a mage, not as a melee DD.

I remember quite clearly when RDM started to shift to being more of a back line job. It's right around level 30 or so. There were little things like not being able to perform an duties in a party if i got paralyzed by AOE.



I never "admitted" that anywhere. Here's the thing though. In general I think RDM is an underutilized job in Abyssea. Maybe only because the general playerbase tends to extrapolate from what's seen as optimal and therefore, RDM gets overlooked a lot. What are the strengths RDM can bring to the table at the moment though? The things i've been outlining as their strengths. Certainly not because of melee DD capability, even with CDC.

RDM only had trouble performing party duties due to AoE if you were in a party that needed you in the back line. Granted, the general shortage of WHMs and general glut of DDs meant you were often along mainly to heal but nothing suddenly made you incapable of performing front-line duties if that's what you were there for (in fact you get some great stuff starting in the 30s just for that). Sure, you were never going to show up a DRK DD (who's also can't perform his party duties if paralyzed by AoE) if all you did was auto-attack but in a good party you'd not be far behind if people knew what they were doing. It still works, too, if the party model isn't "spam all melee or all magic."

In a supporting role we were always actually somewhat lackluster unless you got *really* creative anyway- Refresh was the only real claim to fame, DRKs, BLMs, NINs, and anyone with a crossbow could make a passable enfeebler, we get no inherent status cures, and no AoE protection magic. Our capability as healers was *entirely* down to Convert but just like SMN/WHM, people didn't care because that's what they needed people for. Pretty much any caster/WHM was a potential healer (how often did you bring in BLM/SMNs who "wanted the MP" when you could have a BLM/WHM to help cure?).

The main thing that bugs me isn't so much some dissatisfaction with the job evolution (aside from this Tranquil Heart junk), it's that the style of much of the game has changed so that you just *can't* get anywhere by being versatile (which *is* the hallmark of the job, unlike WHM which is "healer" or BLU which is heavily oriented towards damage). When there are no SC's to burst on it doesn't matter how well you can make up the difference between you and a pure DD by also being the backup heal and helping out on party support (rather than needing party resources for support), and when the most important enfeeble is an AoE that we *can't access* there's not much to recommend us for a healer slot if there's a WHM or SCH around especially now that anyone can Convert. I'd say at least we still have our damage mitigation, but that just put us near PLD and it seems that PLD these days is either not so great if it isn't /NIN, or overkill and passed up for a pure DD (since they can't really leverage "and healing/off-tank" to get a DD slot these days either).

That basically leaves us off solo, which is great and all, but that's called BST (not that it should have been, but that was another case of the mythical majority completely alienating a job because of misunderstood potential), aside from when a group finally *does* need a specific enfeeble for a specific fight.

RDM has unique, meritable enfeebling and enhancing magic. Have you even looked at your merits categories yet? It has unique spells at lvl 90 which make it a very strong support and enfeebling mage. It's pretty obviously been designed as the master enfeebler and support mage class. Also, AOE buffs generally aren't that useful. Unless you're allergic to casting on multiple people.

Wonderful! Now give me back a party dynamic where it matters.

No, that's a load of nonsense. It's because BLU is more of a melee and DD mage, and as you said yourself, the spell sets mean you're never going to be able to have access to all of those spells at the same time. I mean you guys can typecast your own jobs and other jobs all you want. Even go so far as to suggest an alternate role for other jobs so these suggestions for RDM seem more rational. It's obvious some of you are never going to see sense.

So, the fact that some jobs have alternate roles doesn't make sense? Or you just don't like people using the fact that a lot of jobs can fill more than one role to justify the job seen from the start of the series and even listed *in the manual* as being multi-role actually getting to remain multi-role? I guess there aren't actually any NINs after all since they wouldn't make sense what with their ability to do more than one role, PLDs too for that matter. If BLU had been around pre-ToAU I'd *love* to see how "more of a melee mage" would work out for getting them out of healing duties...

Even with most players mindlessly spamming WSs or teirIV/V magic though, a lot of us would still like the *option* to play the game we got hooked on, so huge (ok, potentially huge, since plenty of "enhances" or "reduces" turn out to be pretty small amounts) shifts in the capabilities of a job or combination of jobs 10 years in *do* tend to chafe a bit- WHM getting an ability to make them able to heal more makes plenty of sense, and I can see it for SCH, but I don't see any reason whatsoever to give it to RDM, both because it undermines capabilities (namely tanking, at least without using bar/blind spam for hate instaed of healing) and because it's a very specific and unneeded trait (where's our enmity- for nukes, or other black magic related ability? This is like giving WAR built-in counter and guard. Also, an RDM who's having enmity issues from Curing that they can't deal with is either in a bad party or woefully under-prepared). I don't see anyone lining up to give the higher MAB and MDB tiers to RDM, nor decrying the job's lack of Clear Mind IV/V, either, so it doesn't seem like people are too concerned about making the job actually better at casting, just about being bitter that a job doesn't want to get pigeonholed?

I do have one question about this, though: Why is this not being added as an ability, like Avatar's Favor? Since it *does* have the potential to impact a lot of things people do (even if PLD/WHM turned out to be exceedingly rare and most folks don't count on the RDM to handle emergencies anymore, plenty of people like to get RDMs to help with 2 or 3 person fights and I see plenty of PLDs doing similar as /WHM and /RDM now that they don't have any party tanking to do) why is it an always-on can't-kill-it-if-you-try trait? That would make the healers happy when their party doesn't have a clue, without up-ending the boat for people who haven't mentally erased all memory of life before burns.

[blowfin]

That basically leaves us off solo, which is great and all, but that's called BST (not that it should have been, but that was another case of the mythical majority completely alienating a job because of misunderstood potential), aside from when a group finally *does* need a specific enfeeble for a specific fight.

Right, and if you`re not solo, you`re in a party curing and support, which RDM`s seem to hate too. Where are you people actually happy then?

Also, BST was alienated because people were stupid and didn't understand how the EXP penalty worked, not because the job itself was misunderstood. RDM is hardly in the same boat, it`s gone through phases of IMMENSE popularity in this game, and it hardly suffered from a stigma such as the EXP pentaly.

As for the demand for RDM, i`d wait and reserve any judgement until after the update. Chances are they`re going to be quite valuable for the new content.

it's that the style of much of the game has changed so that you just *can't* get anywhere by being versatile

Versatility is the hallmark of this game. But it comes in the form of `change jobs`, not having it all in one job.

[Abadacchus]

Looks like it's time to clean the rust off my scythe. Very excited for the upcoming Job Adjustments!