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  1. #1
    Player TullemoreAsuraFFXI's Avatar
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    Integrity censored? Conspiracy?

    So a relevant topic was removed from FFXI official forums.
    This topic made transparent a vulnerability not just within the transmission of data between client users and FFXI servers, but also design construction of game play.

    Jerbob of Phoenix laid out one of the single best replys I have had the pleasure to read concerning the issue of corrupt client user behavior.

    Jerbob, I hope you saved that honest and frank critique.
    I would love for you to post it again.

    Grievances stated showed the truth of the matter between the relationships and interconnections between ToS violations, dishonorable conduct, cheats, bots, prohibited 3rd party computer programs, Mercenary culture, RMT, craft products, transferable items, materials, currencies and gil.

    Proposals for solutions additionally were submitted. These too, received the removal from public view, apparently because they was a reply under the controversial topic.

    As for the "Conspiracy"? Ask just why is it that coveted equipment in the game have requirements of fetching and dispensing of a transferable currency or item. Items which can be bought or sold for gil, that which can be sold through mercenary arrangements if they carry a "EX" tag.

    I declared that detrimental behavior (3rd party program usage, Mercenary culture, RMT, bots, cheats, and scams) all have their origination firmly rooted in these transferable currencies, materials, items and gil.

    The procurement activities and requirements for coveted equipment (including crafting Escutcheons) in FFXI has INDUCED RMT, CHEATING, BOTS, MERCS, and completely disregards the desired happiness of the conscientious PlayOnline CUSTOMER.

    So now that this topic is no longer a reply for a controversial vulnerability, will it be taken down too? The information is out, there's other forums, websites, social media, discord.

    The proposal to set things right was submitted, possibly someone employed on behalf of Square-Enix was competent enough to preserve it.
    (6)
    Last edited by TullemoreAsuraFFXI; 04-30-2020 at 04:44 AM.

  2. #2
    Player Alhanelem's Avatar
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    This isn't about conspiracies, it's about security. vulnerabilities and stuff need to be handled delicately lest they be exploited further, peoples privacy gets violated, etc. etyc. etc.

    That being said, I don't ever buy into conspiracy theories. Ever. The vast majority of them are unfounded at best and outright false at worst. The way your post is written it's hard to even make sense if what you're talking about in the first place. And from the look of it, you're probably HOPING it will get deleted for ammunition added to this alleged conspiracy.
    (0)

  3. #3
    Player TullemoreAsuraFFXI's Avatar
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    I shouldn't have to lay out an illustrated diagram on how account servicing policy could be prioritized. I'm sure you can connect the dots.
    (2)

  4. #4
    Player Alhanelem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TullemoreAsuraFFXI View Post
    I shouldn't have to lay out an illustrated diagram on how account servicing policy could be prioritized. I'm sure you can connect the dots.
    You honestly should because I don't have a something something clue what you're talking about. Your entire post was a bunch of gibberish to me. I can barely even tell what it is you're complaining about as your post lacks context. All I get out of it is some vague cokmplaint about RMT and I guess SE not doing enough or some such thing like that.

    "connecting the dots" is how conspiracy theories work. That's a fancy phrase for "making assumptions." And assumptions are not facts.

    All I can tell is you feel like SE owes you something. They don't. If you're not satisfied, cancel your subscription. That's what I would do and that's what any responsible customer should do.
    (1)
    Last edited by Alhanelem; 04-30-2020 at 04:58 PM.

  5. #5
    Player Jerbob's Avatar
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    Thanks for the endorsement, Tullemore - I'm glad that you found my post interesting. While I'd like to submit it again, I feel it would be unwise for me to repost my feelings verbatim; that may have triggered the deletion of the thread, and I value my ability to post on these forums as well as other people's ability to discuss matters without their thoughts disappearing. Nevertheless, I absolutely stand by my previous post. As a community, we need to actively reject cheating, refuse to support it, and challenge those who may cheat in our parties. Turning a blind eye to what some people would call "the little things" would allow them to gradually get away with things that aren't so little, such as the contents of the deleted post. And, despite claims that might be made by some, that would make the game worse for the rest of us, either by changing the statistics that SE has available or by directly messing up the economy, availability of pickup groups, availability of camps in zones, the availability of items, etc etc etc.

    I'm not sure we necessarily agree on the best solution to this problem, Tullemore, but I think we agree on the cause, and I appreciate that. I agree that transferable currency potentially enables cheaters to do very well for themselves, but I think that the benefits of having a game economy that is in part run by player demand are significant - and it's more fun. I feel it's better to address a potential abuse of a fun system rather than to remove the system; while that would work, we lose something in the process, and I think that would be a shame. We shouldn't have to sacrifice our own enjoyment of the game to combat an aspect of the community that can't play by the rules. Perhaps I am just being too idealistic, though.

    I know that Runescape did something similar with transferable currency some time ago and that the measures were universally hated and extremely unpopular, to the extent that it was reverted. I wasn't there at the time, nor am I a big Runescape player, but the records are certainly out there and might prove interesting reference material for such a proposal.

    Regarding feeling like we are "owed something", I would argue that we are absolutely entitled to expect a game that isn't overrun by cheaters - that's explicitly laid out in the terms of service. Note that this statement very precisely does not give my opinion on whether this expectation is being met - it is an abstract observation.

    I also agree with Alhanelem that we're not entitled to demand a very specific solution to a perceived solution. Our expectation should simply be that a solution is provided - and, again, I offer no opinion regarding whether this is happening or not. But providing suggestions for solutions to problems should absolutely be fair game on these forums, and I support the fact that Tullemore is obviously working hard on his suggestions, even if we may not necessarily agree on the best course of action.

    At any rate, I feel like continued and frank discussion (to the extent permitted) of this topic is valuable. It draws attention to any individuals that may exist who believe themselves to be exempt from both the rules of the game and general standards of decency re: not messing up the game for everyone else around them. And because this discussion is both valuable and touches on problematic concepts, we need to be extra careful not to break the rules of this forum - while, of course, simultaneously being as constructive and critical of events as possible.

    I agree with Alhanelem that there is no deliberate conspiracy here, just violations of the forum rules regarding direct criticism of SE and the posting of exploits. I do also, however, agree with Tullemore that sometimes the dots are there to be connected and might lead to some interesting conclusions that are supported by observed reality and therefore deserve further thought. We just need to be careful how we express things here, in particular.
    (4)
    Last edited by Jerbob; 04-30-2020 at 10:34 PM.

  6. #6
    Player TullemoreAsuraFFXI's Avatar
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    Certainly, I have always included in a reply or at the start of the topic terms such as proposal, idea or suggestion.

    I have given praise where i felt it was worthy.
    True that over the years my evaluation of cheating is leading to more assertive criticism.

    Upon a version update, upon a new upgrade tier and each addition the FFXI team has ability to create processes that are counter-measures against cheating.
    They can do so proactively and retroactively. It is the composition of design that determines whether it has effective or poor counter-measures built in.
    The standard that needs to be applied is if lessons are learned. Are mistakes corrected? When a foundation is repeated, how does one expect to attain different results?

    The veterans know the hazards that should be avoided. The veterans know when design has effective counter-measures at the design layer.

    Truly the devs will make their own evaluations. A great extent of what they evaluate properly should be from recommendations submitted by veterans who condemn cheating.
    (3)
    Last edited by TullemoreAsuraFFXI; 05-01-2020 at 01:06 AM.

  7. #7
    Player Stompa's Avatar
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    It really cheers me up, that Tullemore and Jerbob, and many other true FFXI fans, are posting about the game that they clearly care deeply about. It makes me so happy to know that I am not alone, in my profound and life-defining love for Vana'diel and all things FFXI.

    Tullemore in particular, takes the time to write extremely lengthy and detailed clerical breakdowns of the facts at Ground Level, based on his own empirical experiences, and the surrounding available information. I find his analysis to be extremely intelligent, and rooted in a deep respect for the original FFXI core game, and in many ways he is voicing the really strong feelings that exist in a remarkable fan culture, that has evolved among FFXI fans for almost twenty years.

    Obviously, I have nothing but contempt for Rmt, Botters, or other cheaters. I see these as enemy attacks upon the world of Vana'diel that I love.

    But I do not see any conspiracies here, rather I see a sad aspect of modern life, which is that honourable behaviour is no longer prized in the mainstream, and those of us who live within the self-imposed confines of a strict honour code, are considered old-fashioned and kooky.

    Personally, my happiest moments were hunting NMs in the open-areas, out in the wilderness. I liked the RA-EX drops, and I didn't mind spending years camping NMs. In my experience, the Rmt did not have the patience or the skill to farm NMs generally, and they tended to ignore 70% of NMs altogether, because the drops were not only RA-EX but also they were exotic kooky drops that the mainstream players didn't care much about. Obviously the Rmt always botted the high Gil value NMs, or those NMs that dropped popular RA-EX gear.

    I have said before, that there should be thousands more new open-area NMs that drop fun, unusual, exotic gear, gear that is not game-changing or essential or super-popular or High Gil Value, and this would allow people like me to go Hunting again. A RA-EX fun hat, a nice earring, anything that says I farmed the ferocious NM and finally got the drop. If it is not a popular or valuable item, so much the better, because I was farming the NM as a challenge and test of skill and persistence.

    But open-area NMs were pretty much stopped in 2010, something that I consider a huge mistake.

    The trigger-pop NMs in Aby, and the entirely mechanical instance NMs in SoA and Ambuscade etc., are not real NMs, they are not To Be Hunted, but rather delivered to you at a Drive Thru window.

    I believe that mechanical instance NMs / instance battle content, is far easier to farm mechanically by Rmt Botter types, than are the exotic remote open-area NMs of the original game.

    All that being said, I greatly admire and thank the FFXI Dev Team for working so hard to keep the game online, and for adding a lot of fun and cool QOL features in recent years.

    I am always happy that FFXI is still available online, and I am grateful for every single day that I can spend in Vana'diel.
    (3)

  8. #8
    Player Sirmarki's Avatar
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    Very valid points in this thread.

    I find myself filling out the STFU form far too much. Again, I had to do it today because a crowd of undesirables were hi-jacking every single group of monsters and ??? points in Abyssea. Using all kinds of tricks to get around the map (I won't go into details, but I'm sure you can imagine). It is frustrating, so I logged off, and haven't logged in at all today. Competing against genuine players is one thing, competing against things that shouldn't be possible is another.

    It has gotten to the point where some players simply do not care. Full blown conversations in linkshells and even /yell sometimes about using this and that. It is accepted as the new normal.

    Maybe the players can help out? Maybe if somebody has reported enough violations that turned out to be genuine, get some kind of moderator status prioritising their reports. At the moment it is like a leaking hole in a bucket which by the time has managed to be fixed, another 4 holes have appeared.
    (4)

    Sirmarki, ex-Fenrir, a young warrior, in the heyday.

  9. #9
    Player Alhanelem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stompa View Post
    It really cheers me up, that Tullemore and Jerbob, and many other true FFXI fans, are posting about the game that they clearly care deeply about. It makes me so happy to know that I am not alone, in my profound and life-defining love for Vana'diel and all things FFXI.
    I love and care about FFXI as much as anyone else here, and I want to see something done about the cheating. But there is no conspiracy. The idea that SE is in league with the RMT and cheaters is absurd and there is no basis for this nor proof of it.

    If you have concerns they should be expressed in a civil manner. This conspiracy theory Tullemore has cooked up is beyond ridiculous, and isn't going to have any positive effect on anything. I'm not going to praise people for making thinly veiled threats.

    As I said, people should speak with their wallets. If you don't have faith that they can or will address this problem, then let them know your satisfaction level with your sub fee.

    The trigger-pop NMs in Aby, and the entirely mechanical instance NMs in SoA and Ambuscade etc., are not real NMs, they are not To Be Hunted, but rather delivered to you at a Drive Thru window.

    I believe that mechanical instance NMs / instance battle content, is far easier to farm mechanically by Rmt Botter types, than are the exotic remote open-area NMs of the original game.
    I don't think we should not have these things just because RMT abuse them. They should do something about the RMT themselves, or take steps to make them less abuseable. I don't want to see another case of bad apples ruining something that works pefectly fine with legitimate people.

    Ever heard the phrase, "This is why we can't have nice things?"
    (2)
    Last edited by Alhanelem; 05-01-2020 at 08:58 AM.

  10. #10
    Player TullemoreAsuraFFXI's Avatar
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    I really like the concept of the voidwalker NMs, although correctly debated about in regards to the irritation of some unnecessary repetition with abyssite tier functions and time sink with the color change mechanic.

    If all the abyssite had just been made to be independently purposed for their particular hunt, then as far as an open world NM system, that would have been ideal.
    (1)

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