A Ninja without Throwing...

[Karbuncle]

stack this with Sange and you have a mini-Meditate, hit 3 times and you instantly get another WS. if they make Sange fire off instantly like Eagle Eye Shot it would be even better, you could solo skillchain with any sub you want

Now all we need to do is get rid of Sange Removing Shadows and we're golden.

WS > Sange > WS > Skillchain.

That wouldn't be that bad of a fix. Maybe as to break it less, the "TP Bonus for ranged attacks" Could only apply to Sange. Meaning you could isntantly get ~150TP With Sange.

[wish12oz]

Can never put RNG out of a job if they fixed throwing. Also my idea would simply be to tack on an extremely high D to a shuriken for a "fix" or w/e. like D120~130 should be a good starter.

Hi, RNG is useless and is already out of a job, it is the absolute worst DD in the game, everything else does way more damage then it does, and its obnoxious when rngs stand far away and pull hate, so most intelligent people won't even bring RNGs to anything.

And if you bothered to read the thread, you would of noticed repeatedly how shurikens need to be completely broken, like 300+++ damage to even be half useful. 120-130 is jackishtnothing and would do nothing. Can you please read the effing thread before you post garbage?

Might want to tell the others that because they keep saying the only way that throwing could be fixed would nerf ninja melee DMG and also break the other jobs. I don't see RNG and BLM being put out of a job thought even if throwing was adjusted/fixed.

Same thing to you too, learn game mechanics and read the thread, your uninformed opinions serve no purpose in a debate about game mechanics and math. Fixing ranged damage mechanics so they're useful at max level would break the game. The only possible solution is letting haste affect ranged delay, and that would not fix throwing by itself.

[Akujima]

This post is for Karbuncle

Hi, RNG is useless and is already out of a job, it is the absolute worst DD in the game, everything else does way more damage then it does, and its obnoxious when rngs stand far away and pull hate, so most intelligent people won't even bring RNGs to anything.

It's this kind of stuff that gets annoying to see. And its this kind of mind set which makes me want to "counter-post". Yes I do read the posts, and sure my replies seem to have a little bit of attitude. But nothing so straight out @$$hole-ish as the quote above, is written in my paragraphs. Admittedly I was wrong to group you together with Wish/GG and whoever else wants to team up and press each others like button against me.

Just as soon as something positive comes about, another "elite" wants to come in and steer us right into the wall again. It's quite funny, because I clearly remember Wish being the one saying that if NIN got better throwing, "it would put RNG out of a job" which is an interesting thing to note. But why not fix RNG then? Or should we just be done with that Job too, and focus on boosting the "better Jobs", continuing to do the same thing that causes them to complain and be upset at the other Jobs that are being left out.

I make good points, and I think that is what in turn sets people off. Relativity is a factor to weigh in. Who would want to play RNG to 90 (or some other job that doesn't fit in the elitists description) only to have people exclude them from events, or be told to level up something else, because RNG isn't "cool enough for school". According to them, what's the point in even having RNG in the game at all? I would like them to answer that if they could.

I am frustrated. This thread was actually starting to turn positive for once, but then someone has to come in and take a dump on our heads.

[Greatguardian]

This post is for Karbuncle




It's this kind of stuff that gets annoying to see. And its this kind of mind set which makes me want to "counter-post". Yes I do read the posts, and sure my replies seem to have a little bit of attitude. But nothing so straight out @$$hole-ish as the quote above, is written in my paragraphs. Admittedly I was wrong to group you together with Wish/GG and whoever else wants to team up and press each others like button against me.

Just as soon as something positive comes about, another "elite" wants to come in and steer us right into the wall again. It's quite funny, because I clearly remember Wish being the one saying that if NIN got better throwing, "it would put RNG out of a job" which is an interesting thing to note. But why not fix RNG then? Or should we just be done with that Job too, and focus on boosting the "better Jobs", continuing to do the same thing that causes them to complain and be upset at the other Jobs that are being left out.

I make good points, and I think that is what in turn sets people off. Relativity is a factor to weigh in. Who would want to play RNG to 90 (or some other job that doesn't fit in the elitists description) only to have people exclude them from events, or be told to level up something else, because RNG isn't "cool enough for school". According to them, what's the point in even having RNG in the game at all? I would like them to answer that if they could.

I am frustrated. This thread was actually starting to turn positive for once, but then someone has to come in and take a dump on our heads.

Even I've said a dozen times now that I don't give a shit what you do or how you play on your own time. You haven't only been skimming Karbuncle's posts, but everyone's because you find some random hot-button to freak out over before you actually comprehend the content.

This thread would be a lot better if the OP actually attempted to offer a single solution which is actually viable under the constrictions imposed by the game's mechanics. That is the #1 big thing that I've been trying to impress for the past few pages. Saying "Buff throwing because I like it" isn't going to get you very far when it's extremely difficult to come up with a working way to do so. Those very difficulties are the reason why Throwing has been left on the wayside by most players.

Frankly, I really haven't seen a single good point from you. It's mostly just freaking out over how we're "Stomping on your rights" and "trying to oppress you" and such. Hell, I feel like even I've contributed more worthwhile information to this thread than you have. But that doesn't bother me. Continue to shit up your thread all you want despite the fact that everyone else was actually having a polite discussion about the only idea anyone has had this entire time that was at all feasible. It's not my problem.

Spitballing is fine, but throwing out ideas that are impossible to implement or are too vague to even imagine implementing isn't going to do any good. In order to find a way to adjust Throwing in FFXI to make it feasible, you have to first know how Throwing and FFXI work. Unfortunately, a lot of people most certainly do not, and when they post things which are most definitely impossible or which are just so completely outside the bounds of reality it just infinitely frustrates and angers the people who are actually trying to think up a solution.

I've tried. Other people have tried. I seriously can't think of jack shit. Throwing Attacks is the only good idea to come out of all of these throwing threads combined, and it's good solely because it does not use the /RA command. If you could sit down and attempt to actually find a solution that works, rather than freaking out on those of us who know "Idea X won't work", this thread would be a lot better off.

[Shoko]

Hi, RNG is useless and is already out of a job, it is the absolute worst DD in the game, everything else does way more damage then it does, and its obnoxious when rngs stand far away and pull hate, so most intelligent people won't even bring RNGs to anything.

And if you bothered to read the thread, you would of noticed repeatedly how shurikens need to be completely broken, like 300+++ damage to even be half useful. 120-130 is jackishtnothing and would do nothing. Can you please read the effing thread before you post garbage?



Same thing to you too, learn game mechanics and read the thread, your uninformed opinions serve no purpose in a debate about game mechanics and math. Fixing ranged damage mechanics so they're useful at max level would break the game. The only possible solution is letting haste affect ranged delay, and that would not fix throwing by itself.

I only came back to this thread to respond to this, but you really make obnoxious and stupid posts. How's that NIN treating ya now that you don't have to RDM/DRK refresh and stun at Tiamat anymore? lol

Actually I really don't know you, but from what I realize, you're a dense person that strives to make himself feel better by dumbing down everyone's ideas. Also one that feels NIN will be playing at an optimal pace (BRD, Haste, DNC) 100% of the time, which just isn't possible.

Also, a well played RNG with the right weapon can and will crap all over a NIN's dmg within Abyssea and outside of it. Peace. This will be the last post ever addressing anything you say, I'd rather listen to everyone else's post (including GG) instead of your babble.

[wish12oz]

I only came back to this thread to respond to this, but you really make obnoxious and stupid posts. How's that NIN treating ya now that you don't have to RDM/DRK refresh and stun at Tiamat anymore? lol

If you know of my comments about Tiamat, maybe you should look for the math I posted about fighting Tiamat with PO, and why no RDM would have enough MP to do it the way they wanted. And yes, the game is always more fun when when you don't have to play with people who cannot keep up with what the new best strategies are, and how to use them effectively.

Actually I really don't know you, but from what I realize, you're a dense person that strives to make himself feel better by dumbing down everyone's ideas. Also one that feels NIN will be playing at an optimal pace (BRD, Haste, DNC) 100% of the time, which just isn't possible.

This is entirely wrong, you do not need anything but gear, haste spell and marches to hit the attack delay reduction cap.
Keep in mind that any good bard will have at least a +2 march horn and +2 hands for march+1, and if they don't, through minimal effort you can acquire both of them for the bard if it's someone you hang out with a lot.

BRD with +2 Instrument and +1 March from Hands (+3 Total):
Advancing is 10.9375%
Victory is 14.0625%
We'll say 11 and 14 to make it easy.

Should that bard have a Ghorn, or after the update should they add a +3 march instrument, which they will eventually, just look at how every other song is getting a +3 instrument. (except ballad)

BRD with +3 Instrument and +1 March from Hands (+4 Total):
Advancing is 12.5%
Victory is 15.625%
We'll say 12 and 16 to make it easy.

Base dual wield of Ninja at Lvl 90 is 35%.
Haste spell is 15%
Gear haste caps at 25% (and is very very very easy to reach)
gear + spell + both marches+3
25 + 15 + 11 + 14 = 65% haste

gear + spell + both marches+4
25 + 15 + 12 + 16 = 68% haste

so 65% haste for march+3, 68% haste for march+4

If we assume you have normal everyday ninja gear along with base dual wield.
Base DW 35%
Suppanomimi 5%
AF3+2 head 5%
af1 body 5%
This brings DW from 35% to 50%

Adding 50% DW to 65% haste bring your delay reduction to 82.5%, 80% is the cap

So as you can see, with normal gear ninja easily has access to, and a bard with march+3, which is also easy to get, you can easily exceed the delay reduction cap.

Also, a well played RNG with the right weapon can and will crap all over a NIN's dmg within Abyssea and outside of it. Peace. This will be the last post ever addressing anything you say, I'd rather listen to everyone else's post (including GG) instead of your babble.

This is also incorrect, here's why:

The only RNG I know has a gandiva, so we'll be using the gandiva for comparison, and assuming an ACC rate of 100% because I don't feel like applying 95% acc to everything, because that will just tip the scales in the NIN's favor even more.

Kannagi+kamome delay is (210+180) 390.
Apply 80% delay reduction to that, and you get 78.
Lets look at attacking now, 2 attacks per 78 delay, 54% of the time you get an extra attack, so we can safely say, you get 3 attacks per round. (apoc 15% TA, eponas 3% TA (18% TA) eponas 3% DA, brutal 5% DA, /war 10% DA (18% DA) so we do 18+18+18 = 54.
So ninja comes out to 3 attacks per 78 delay time.

Gandiva+arrow delay is (490+90) 580.
For the sake of this arguement we're going to assume the rng is standing far away, and only shooting, so he's going to have a 580 delay between attacks.

-------math from here down is incorrect, see below post for correction-------
Now, lets say we have a 50% rapid shot rate (which is way more then you have) So 50% of the time the bow delay is reduced to 0. so we can take away half the 490, to make it 245, 245+90 = 335.
Now lets apply all the snapshot availible to the 245, Lets say you have a 5% body, 3% belt and 5% hat...... (mirke, impulse, af3+2 hat, and Im not even sure the hat is 5%) and velocity shot is 10%.
5+3+5+10 = 23% snapshot
245 x .77 = 188.65
So we'll say your new delay is 188+90 for 278.
So RNG gets 1 attack for every 278 delay.

278 divided by 78 is 3.5641etc
we'll say 3.5
So basically, ninja gets 3.5 attack rounds per RNG attack round under the best possible circumstances for RNG.
At 3 hits/round NIN gets (3.5x3) 10.5 attacks per a RNG's 1 attack.
Looking at just melee attacks, 1 shot from a RNG needs to do as much as 10.5 attacks from a ninja, for the RNG to be on even ground.


Blade: Hi and Jishnu's basically do the same amount of damage, so we'll leave WS damage comparisons out of this. But we will talk about WS frequency.
A good RNG will almost have a 4 hit inside abyssea, so we'll say they have a 4 hit.
My NIN gets just under 5tp/hit, and 11 from WSing. Which means I need 22.25 hits between WS's, at 3 hits/round this means I need 7.5 rounds of attacks between WS's.

So which happens faster? 3 rounds from a RNG, or 7.5 rounds from a NIN?
If we look at the thread higher up, it says we get 3.5 rounds on nin per round on RNG, so in those 3 rounds for RNG to get 100 TP, a NIN gets 10.5 rounds.
What this means is a NIN actually gets MORE WS's then a RNG in the same amount of time.

How much more?
well, if NIN gets 10.5 rounds and needs 7.5 every time a RNG gets 100TP, that means in the time it takes a RNG to get 200TP, NIN gets 21 rounds, which is -almost- enough to have gained 300tp. If the RNG wasnt mashing on his ranged attack macro as fast as possible and getting every shot off as soon as possible, the NIN would actually reach the 22.5 rounds needed to get 300 tp.
So basically, for every 2 WS's the RNG gets, the NIN gets 3.

What does all this mean?
It means every RNG WS needs to do 1.5x as much damage as the NINs, and Every attack the RNG makes needs to equal 10.5 attacks by the NIN for the RNG to stay even in damage with the NIN, and this is assuming everything is in the RNGs favor, 50% rapid shot, a 4 hit, max snapshot, and very little fumbling between attacks.

So, while actually playing the game is it even remotely realistic for a RNG to keep up?
Absolutely not.
But feel free to provide your own indept analysis to counter me, I welcome the chance to debate this with you.

[Karbuncle]

Cause then we end up with Sange 2.0 :\

And We don't think your on SE's payroll, But when you make a thread about something, You generally present a Solution as well.

If the people who want it the most, Can't think of a Solution, How will SE?

Edit: You don't need to work for SE to understand Mechanics... :| I might not speak for everyone, But i would welcome an addition to throwing that helps NIN, I just can't think of one, and we can't assume SE will have some magic fix, Or we get Sange.

[Greatguardian]

If the people who actually play the game are unable to come up with a working solution, it's rather ridiculous to expect the Developers to be able to do it.

It's not like we know less about most existing game mechanics than they do. It's not super complex stuff. The Devs, however, work all day with all of the game's content and jobs. Players, on the other hand, may work all day with only some of the game's content and some of the jobs. This gives us a more precise outlook on potential problems and solutions.

Unfortunately, at the same time it tends to give some players Tunnel Vision. Heck, recently in the WHM forums people were talking about adding a Spell that removed weakness. You know. A spell that basically does exactly what Mijin Gakure does =/. Everyone wants to buff "Their favorite" job in every possible way. The Developer's job is NOT to appease all of these people, as that would just create a completely chaotic mess of the game. Rather, their job is to find ways to give jobs new abilities without presenting visible bias or obsoleting jobs.

Yeah, sometimes they mess up. Players will always find ways to determine what is best, even if only by a small margin. Gaps appear that the Devs may not have accounted for. But that doesn't mean they are going to intentionally go and completely break the existing mechanics of the game for anyone.

If NINs cannot come up with a solid, working way to make Throwing relevant without ignoring existing game mechanics, the Devs won't have a clue how to do it.

[Ulric]

I've got a question. What reason does SE have to sort through all the BS to find the few actual good solutions, or ideas for what players want? I wouldn't mind an addition to throwing, I don't really like seeing my skill go to waste, but I highly doubt this is the way to go about getting something changed. If you want SE to take something seriously, I think we should make it easier for them to actually find good ideas. Isn't that what these forums are for? Personally, I liked the idea of making shuriken easier to get, which was one of the large problems with them. I also liked the idea of, instead of making them do "OMGWTF?" damage to compete with melee, making them have additional effects. Which ones may be good while preserving game balance, I can't come to any conclusions, but maybe that would be a start, hm?

[wish12oz]

I've got a question. What reason does SE have to sort through all the BS to find the few actual good solutions, or ideas for what players want?

None, lets hope they don't bother, this thread is just a bunch of whiners QQing cause math and game mechanics say throwing is garbage and cannot be fixed.

I wouldn't mind an addition to throwing, I don't really like seeing my skill go to waste, but I highly doubt this is the way to go about getting something changed. If you want SE to take something seriously, I think we should make it easier for them to actually find good ideas. Isn't that what these forums are for? Personally, I liked the idea of making shuriken easier to get, which was one of the large problems with them. I also liked the idea of, instead of making them do "OMGWTF?" damage to compete with melee, making them have additional effects. Which ones may be good while preserving game balance, I can't come to any conclusions, but maybe that would be a start, hm?

The problem with 'debuff' shurikens is that ninja already has spells for all the good ones.(slow and blind) Unless they wanted to put amnesia on one, but that's pretty much not going to happen, and if it did, it would be stupid to get, like PP arrows, or current shurikens.

There's a complete lack of 'ideas' to make throwing usable in this thread, in case you didn't notice or read it. All the OP does is resort to name calling and saying no one loves him when you say anything to him, he won't even respond when you ask him direct questions. And the only worthwhile suggestion in other threads, is the one to give ninja basically 'kick attacks' like monk, but make it throwing attacks, and acc/damage based on ranged acc/att, that way you can use the throwing skill for something, and you don't lose DPS or TP gain, but actually increase both.