A Ninja without Throwing...

[Karbuncle]

Cause then we end up with Sange 2.0 :\

And We don't think your on SE's payroll, But when you make a thread about something, You generally present a Solution as well.

If the people who want it the most, Can't think of a Solution, How will SE?

Edit: You don't need to work for SE to understand Mechanics... :| I might not speak for everyone, But i would welcome an addition to throwing that helps NIN, I just can't think of one, and we can't assume SE will have some magic fix, Or we get Sange.

[Greatguardian]

If the people who actually play the game are unable to come up with a working solution, it's rather ridiculous to expect the Developers to be able to do it.

It's not like we know less about most existing game mechanics than they do. It's not super complex stuff. The Devs, however, work all day with all of the game's content and jobs. Players, on the other hand, may work all day with only some of the game's content and some of the jobs. This gives us a more precise outlook on potential problems and solutions.

Unfortunately, at the same time it tends to give some players Tunnel Vision. Heck, recently in the WHM forums people were talking about adding a Spell that removed weakness. You know. A spell that basically does exactly what Mijin Gakure does =/. Everyone wants to buff "Their favorite" job in every possible way. The Developer's job is NOT to appease all of these people, as that would just create a completely chaotic mess of the game. Rather, their job is to find ways to give jobs new abilities without presenting visible bias or obsoleting jobs.

Yeah, sometimes they mess up. Players will always find ways to determine what is best, even if only by a small margin. Gaps appear that the Devs may not have accounted for. But that doesn't mean they are going to intentionally go and completely break the existing mechanics of the game for anyone.

If NINs cannot come up with a solid, working way to make Throwing relevant without ignoring existing game mechanics, the Devs won't have a clue how to do it.

[Ulric]

I've got a question. What reason does SE have to sort through all the BS to find the few actual good solutions, or ideas for what players want? I wouldn't mind an addition to throwing, I don't really like seeing my skill go to waste, but I highly doubt this is the way to go about getting something changed. If you want SE to take something seriously, I think we should make it easier for them to actually find good ideas. Isn't that what these forums are for? Personally, I liked the idea of making shuriken easier to get, which was one of the large problems with them. I also liked the idea of, instead of making them do "OMGWTF?" damage to compete with melee, making them have additional effects. Which ones may be good while preserving game balance, I can't come to any conclusions, but maybe that would be a start, hm?

[wish12oz]

I've got a question. What reason does SE have to sort through all the BS to find the few actual good solutions, or ideas for what players want?

None, lets hope they don't bother, this thread is just a bunch of whiners QQing cause math and game mechanics say throwing is garbage and cannot be fixed.

I wouldn't mind an addition to throwing, I don't really like seeing my skill go to waste, but I highly doubt this is the way to go about getting something changed. If you want SE to take something seriously, I think we should make it easier for them to actually find good ideas. Isn't that what these forums are for? Personally, I liked the idea of making shuriken easier to get, which was one of the large problems with them. I also liked the idea of, instead of making them do "OMGWTF?" damage to compete with melee, making them have additional effects. Which ones may be good while preserving game balance, I can't come to any conclusions, but maybe that would be a start, hm?

The problem with 'debuff' shurikens is that ninja already has spells for all the good ones.(slow and blind) Unless they wanted to put amnesia on one, but that's pretty much not going to happen, and if it did, it would be stupid to get, like PP arrows, or current shurikens.

There's a complete lack of 'ideas' to make throwing usable in this thread, in case you didn't notice or read it. All the OP does is resort to name calling and saying no one loves him when you say anything to him, he won't even respond when you ask him direct questions. And the only worthwhile suggestion in other threads, is the one to give ninja basically 'kick attacks' like monk, but make it throwing attacks, and acc/damage based on ranged acc/att, that way you can use the throwing skill for something, and you don't lose DPS or TP gain, but actually increase both.

[Akujima]

"Throwing attacks" is actually a good idea.

Another is an improvement to Sange, such as having more higher level, readily available shuriken (why SE would make Fuma Shuriken only yield 3 per synth and stack to 12 is beyond me). And I'm not talking about 400 DPS Shuriken, I'm talking about 120~ DMG (since Lv75 Koga Shuriken are 88 DMG) that would make sense.

The tactic behind it, if you haven't thought of it yet, would be to pop Sange at the beginning of the fight, and throw for some initial high burst DMG. The improvement to Sange would be, not to have it make you lose shadows and replace that with higher enmity generation or allow it to hit critically for each of the 5 shots or something along those lines.

Switching Qirmiz tathlum with another ammo piece does not make you lose TP. As for Ungur Boomerang? Oh well, but I suppose most of us could live without that extra 8 evasion. So there, I came up with an idea. But it's not like SE couldn't have figured out something like that for themselves.

[Karbuncle]

"Throwing attacks" is actually a good idea.

Another is an improvement to Sange, such as having more higher level, readily available shuriken (why SE would make Fuma Shuriken only yield 3 per synth and stack to 12 is beyond me). And I'm not talking about 400 DPS Shuriken, I'm talking about 120~ DMG (since Lv75 Koga Shuriken are 88 DMG) that would make sense.

The tactic behind it, if you haven't thought of it yet, would be to pop Sange at the beginning of the fight, and throw for some initial high burst DMG. The improvement to Sange would be, not to have it make you lose shadows and replace that with higher enmity generation or allow it to hit critically for each of the 5 shots or something along those lines.

Switching Qirmiz tathlum with another ammo piece does not make you lose TP. As for Ungur Boomerang? Oh well, but I suppose most of us could live without that extra 8 evasion. So there, I came up with an idea. But it's not like SE couldn't have figured out something like that for themselves.

I'm all for adding improvements to Sange/Throwing that involve simply "Initiating Combat" perspectives like the one above.

If there were ~D:120 Shuriken I could make readily, I would use Sange more if i had it merited. As it wouldn't interfere with Melee-Damage output ;o if used as an "Initiating Attack" like you described.

However, I think they should remove the "We take yer shadows" part of Sange. Shadows and Ammo are just too far. One or the other :\ (Please Keep shadows =.=)

"Throwing Attacks" (Like "Kick Attack") i think is by far the best suggestion though ;o

[Shoko]

While I am not against fixing throwing, a lot of our ideas are just not good enough. But why just leave it up to us... why can't we in agreement say "Hey SE may we have throwing fixed without nerfing NIN and putting RNG out of a job?" and see what they come up with?

Can never put RNG out of a job if they fixed throwing. Also my idea would simply be to tack on an extremely high D to a shuriken for a "fix" or w/e. like D120~130 should be a good starter.

[Bulrogg]

Can never put RNG out of a job if they fixed throwing.

Might want to tell the others that because they keep saying the only way that throwing could be fixed would nerf ninja melee DMG and also break the other jobs. I don't see RNG and BLM being put out of a job thought even if throwing was adjusted/fixed.

[Greatguardian]

Might want to tell the others that because they keep saying the only way that throwing could be fixed would nerf ninja melee DMG and also break the other jobs. I don't see RNG and BLM being put out of a job thought even if throwing was adjusted/fixed.

Ranged Attacks will never be "awesome" because of the required innate delay in aiming and putting away a Ranged weapon. This especially harms Low Delay Ranged Weapons (uh, hi Shuriken) because the required innate delay is a larger proportion of the total Ranged Attack Delay.

The only viable fixes for Throwing itself (eg, not counting Throwing Attacks) would pretty much have to come in the form of either:

A) Fulltime Quintuple Throw, similar to Triple/Double Shot. Granted, this will be expensive as all hell to maintain (and rightly should be). I would not mind new Shuriken. But I'd like them to stack to 99, and not require Campaign Union spoils to craft. I rightly expect to be paying like 50k/99 though, or 600k for a stack of "Shuriken... Bags...". That's perfectly fine as long as the supply is stable enough for people to actually find them in stock.

or B) Entirely new Ranged attack mechanics for the game. This will probably never happen, and if it did it would most definitely break Ranger. This is what people are talking about.

[Karbuncle]

Can never put RNG out of a job if they fixed throwing. Also my idea would simply be to tack on an extremely high D to a shuriken for a "fix" or w/e. like D120~130 should be a good starter.

120~130 DMG Shuriken would still massively gimp your melee damage. The idea (in spirit of the OP) was to make Throwing tangible as a form of damage during combat.

But sadly, With a Ninja's natural Dual wield, and haste gear, They attack quite often. So even if the Shuriken had a delay of 10, theres a "2 second" universal action window that delays your attacks. Meaning for 2 seconds after you hit "Ranged attack" no other attacks/r.atks can be preformed, (or job abilities/WS) If you're on RNG, you notice this having to wait a while after the Animation for ranged attack goes off in order to preform a WS or use a Job Ability, Yes?

So a D:120 Shuriken would only do ~300 DMG inside Abyssea(stretching it), and during which, You've lose 1 Attack round, which inside abyssea is at least 500-600 Damage or more depending on Crits/Double/triple attacks. Thats where the "Makin RNG obsolete or nerfing NIN's Dual Wield" comes from. the Shuriken itself would have to deal over ~800 damage to make up for the damage lost from the 2-sec universal delay, and the Ranged-Attack Animation (assuming it gets another ~120 delay like other Shuriken).

This is all of course assuming those who want a fix to Throwing are asking for ways to use it more and maintain their damage.

Another Solution would be to have Shuriken give a large amount of TP. Could give a "Shuriken TP Bonus" Job Trait that, instead of giving Store-TP to shuriken, Boosts TP Gained by Shuriken per level. I.E

Shuriken give ~6TP.

Lv. 10
戦術的な - 手裏剣 - Raises TP gained from Thrown Attacks.
(Tactical Shuriken)

Up to...

Lv.90
Tactical Shurikan V

Which, Each trait would give an additional 6TP per Shuriken, for a total of 36 TP per Shuriken, So while the Damage would not be made up, it would give a large bonus to TP, meaning your WS-Phase damage would get a boost.

this would work well with the level 85~95 Shuriken. It wouldn't make up the damage, but maybe just maybe it would make up for it in WS-phase Damage. I'll leave it up to Wish/GG