Ninja merits, job traits and abilitys

[Darwena]

nin/rdm was pretty fun in abyssea with proper atma, it made me solo a lot of NM for my AF+1 paper.

_____

Nexxus - Cerberus

NIN/WAR with a couple of potion (in case) can solo paper for +1... having /RDM only slow you down. (lack of melee dmg and no Double attacks).

[Nala]

if it wern't for VW procs i'd 5/5 NTE /sigh

[Randnum]

I have questions for wish12oz that I hope do not derail the thread too much. I have seen many posts by you regarding the uselessness of throwing (and recently 'abilities other than melee') and I would like to know an actual technical thing.

Do you have a rough idea at what point of gear aimed completely at supporting melee, that these things become notably inferior?

In this thread you give a clear and understandable explanation of how Throwing is inferior when you have max delay reduction and high rates of Double and Triple Attack. I have attempted to use your numbers to determine when it is absolutely inferior when one possesses less access to certain of these things, and the numbers indicated don't seem to match up with what you said. I am not implying that you are wrong, rather, that I am, and am somehow totally lost.

When I calculate it with the DA rate from only WAR and Brutal, as well as the Haste from only a White Mage and gear cap, the damage from an intentional Sange is only slightly behind, and presuming that Sange would be used at the moment where, for whatever reason, the enemy moves out of melee range, I do not understand the actual loss in using it on a whole.

I therefore ask if your opposition to things other than melee applies only to players who would be using them when melee is an option. If not, can you please provide a general idea of how a NIN without certain Atma or under certain lowman conditions manages to severely outpace their potential throwing damage with their melee if repositioning is required.

[Darwena]

I don't have the Knowledge but 2 points why I stopped to be a Throwing Ninja:

1- Inventory space

To play ninja decently you need:
-Weapons for red trigger.
-Situation gear (Evasion, -PDT, -MDT...)
-Tools and Tools bags (nothing worst than been short on them in event, right?)
-Potions (Echo Drops, Remedy, Holy Water... they are optional but usefull)
For Sange user, add:
-Throwing gear (Ranged ACC/ATTCK)
-Shurikens (don't forget best one are only stack of 12 so it take more spaces)

And I don't even talk about the WS swap, TP build, Enmity and such.

2-Shurikens.
they are expensive, w/e you try to convince me that it cost time/gils for melee setup, it's worst for Shuriken.
-You need to build Smithing Synthesis to 110. Why 110? HQ for more Ammo. But Smithing isn't cheap to build (compare to cooking or woodworking).
-You need mats to craft them and they aren't cheap.
-Stack are the main problem also (just 12).

So build a throwing Ninja is possible, could even be a great build. But compare to a melee one, you need some devotion for it.

For less Effort (Kannagi can be made with 2 ppl (We was 3 for mine) Magian can be soloed. Even Kikoku can be soloed now.)

You can have a good Ninja and you're friend/LS will ask/ beg you to come as Ninja and even help you build the advance version of end weapons. OR you can build a shuriken Nin and play alone, cause ppl will ask you to come with another job than Ninja cause the other one (probably melee) is "better".

[Bulrogg]

We are shuriken ninja, and we don't play alone. -- dattebayo

[vixin]

We are shuriken ninja, and we don't play alone. -- dattebayo

"Together United!"

[Llana_Virren]

We are shuriken ninja, and we don't play alone. -- dattebayo

"Together United!"

Forever alone together?

[Bulrogg]

I tried sending a party invite but you can't accept cross server <.<

--at any rate, I'm looking forward to the Sange, Range attack delay and shuriken adjustments; cheers Square.

[Randnum]

I got my wish (pun intended). Thank you!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...date-Why/page3

The above page contains the full data calculations wish12oz uses for critiques of Throwing and the setup of Shuriken, put in a clearly better place considering.

The data shows that while one DOES benefit more relatively from throwing when you have less Double and Triple attack (and significantly so when you have less haste for any reason), the point at which throwing itself becomes inferior assuming you could be meleeing instead is easily reached even WITH shurikens that they said they won't add.

Whether or not this applies to Sange of course is a different matter since the delay issue changes drastically and you're almost literally doing 6x the damage of one throw if you are geared for that which would, theoretically, do about 3000 damage on anything weak to piercing.

My conclusion is that when you are not yet in possession of gear that pushes your effective number of attacks per melee round past 2.11 (assuming 40% haste and around 45% Dual Wield as well), Sange is probably still worth it if you have the Shuriken for it and are hitting most/all hits, in terms of spike damage.

As for throwing ITSELF, it must be accepted that wish12oz is right and that unless something changes, melee will never lose to it. This is because throwing is unaffected by haste, we have minimal ways of seriously reducing its delay, and my testing as well shows that there is a delay after the actual throw which is the true culprit here, cutting into our damage rating the most.

Until we get together and make it known that we need to throw FASTER, it will not matter.

Forget about arguing down the shuriken damage issue itself. Personally I'd somewhat stop arguing even the cost (but what is up with those stack sizes?)

What throwing needs is for us to not have a 'putting away weapon' phase to it. Until we get that, nothing else we request or complain about can make any real difference because even if we were doing equal damage to that which our katanas do, the TP gain would be abysmally lower and therefore primarily useful as a weird form of Subtle Blow.

As nice as that is, you don't carry around 12 stacks of medium damage shuriken to avoid feeding TP.

It raises the question of why ranged attacks even HAVE a 'putting away weapon' phase between attacks. People don't put away their bows between shots, and I assure you I can hold more than a few shuriken in the other hand.

Oh well. We can dream.

But yeah. People need to stop arguing with wish and start arguing that they don't need to 'put away' their shuriken after throwing.

I would like to ask the Devs to forward this question in one of two ways.

1. Is it possible to remove the secondary wait after the ranged attack completely, even if just as we go up in levels, or perhaps when we are hasted, or somehow if we perform another right after...

2. If this is not possible due to... I don't know... animation constraints or... something... is it possible to have the effective delay of shuriken outright exempted? Leave the number on it so you can calculate TP and just go 'oh if this is an ammo type throwing weapon just ignore the actual delay'.


We can't 'win' this with higher damage shuriken though. We've now been told that outright.

[Bulrogg]

Until we get together and make it known that we need to throw FASTER, it will not matter.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/at...1&d=1335353471

Sept - Oct 2012: Ranged Attack Delay Adjustments

Let's let them know what we're hoping for.

What throwing needs is for us to not have a 'putting away weapon' phase to it.

Something that I thought would be a nice addition to the job would be to have a "Throwing attack" trait similar to a monk's "Kick attack" trait, so that occasionally during our melee shuriken attacks would occur and increase our DMG.