Nerf SMN

[Rwolf]

I see what you're saying but I also didn't want anyone to assume SMN is this OP job that's the only one soloing T3. I don't fully agree with nerfing SMN but I'm listening intently to concerns regarding it and find it has some validity.

The only thing I've seen players bring up is nerfing SMN because of Astral Conduit's DPS. Something like soloing a T3 you're not going to do solo with AC. It'll knock a chunk of health off but you're not melting one and certainly not avoiding mechanics. I brought up GEO and COR because that's where the spike comes from on higher content. Pet buffs and bubbles make a huge difference in damage and besides food and gear there's not much else to buff pets. So if someone is looking at what SMN is doing in a group, they can't apply that damage to solo. Not just speed but you're not doing near as much per Blood Pact without support.

Some BLU vs. Neak solo videos:
https://youtu.be/GL2ltSUCxeU

[Urmom]

Problem is AC is the problem. Not many have too much of a concern with there being jobs that can deal decent dmg from a distance (unless that job is bst for some reason) it's when they start outdps others at the same time with less other jobs needed if only for a short time. This whole thread wouldn't exist if it wasn't for a combination of the new bp dmgs during AC. So why not adjust AC if it's the clear problem?

As far as cor/geo... eh nobody is going to easy mode full dmg solo. It's a question of how much support is needed. Melee is undeniably always been the most support intensive to the point it's why prebuffing became a thing but traditionally offered the highest potential dps. With rng/mage strats being a bit less support (pretty much just a tank and support/healer for tank) and "safer" but a tad less dps (though not as much since the MB update). And strats really just needing the pet jobs but can be helpful to have 1 cor 1 geo and for certain zergs a run.

Could only find this vid but even with some mistakes and taking breaks to siphon tp for safety (makes it slower but less likely something random happens) still managed to go 67-5% on AC. If actually did prebuff with a cor, didn't make a couple of small errors and played the luck roulette by not using Cait Sith could probably do a bigger chunk possibly all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF34wSEiczU&t

[Selindrile]

This mirrors my sentiments on the matter, ESPECIALLY with the way the "Geo Nerf" was handled, if anyone noticed, the nerf completely bounced off Geo, we still use them for everything.

But, because they can no longer protect melees as well (Vex/Attune) or buff Blms as well, (Focus/Languor), these tasks didn't get picked up by other jobs, like SE was hoping.

Why? Alternatives for these things are either mostly too weak or situational to truly replace Geo for those situations, instead, the strategies that involved these things simply fell by the wayside by and large, and the strategies that allowed us to not have to deal with these things at all, instead of mitigating them, won out.

[Frodnon]

To be honest, there are a least a handful of jobs soloing Reisenjima T3. Search for T3 solo videos. I've seen BLU and SCH soloing them off the top of my head. Haven't seen SMN but I don't discount it. Without being super charged by a GEO and COR, I don't see it capable of melting a T3 and avoiding mechanics altogether solo.

Papesse did yakshi and oncycophora fairly recently with trusts. He's under the name duesssa on youtube.

[Zeargi]

What is with this summoner main mindset? You don't REDESIGN the entire game because >>ONE SINGLE JOB<< out 22 can completely obliterate the game and nearly game shark through it with ease. That's completely insane - do you honestly expect such a small developer team to redesign the ENTIRE game because of a SINGLE job?
Anyways, more onto your point. Pets can be indefinitely resummoned without res weakness, players cannot.

All I hear, is that everyone is complaining about those stupid aeonic weapons. Look at changing those mobs and your problem will be solved. Correct, SMN's Avatars aren't hindered by weakness, but neither are the pets of BSTs, DRGs, or PUPs. The other solution which should have been is to give WHM and SCH the means to remove weakness at this point in the game. The NPC Ferreous Coffin has Reviviscence, so it's already in the game as it is. And earlier you said that no other job can do what SMN can, and that's completely not true. COR, SCH, SAM, DRK, DRG, BLU, and even RDM to some extent are all strong DDs. I have someone on my server that plays DRG and teams up with a GEO, and he completely outclasses other players. I have a BLU is my LS, and he's unGodly stong and was often the deciding factor of a few Wanted/Escha wins.

Ok compromise, every time an avatar is defeated the SMN is inflicted with a 5 minute weakness effect and has all their buffs removed. Also we reduce the pet -DT cap to 50%.

No, that's not a compromise at all. The Trial-Size Trials for SMN would be complete un-doable, and you punish SMNs that are starting out.

[Rwolf]

Just to clarify my posts that are being misinterpreted. I didn't say SMN was incapable of soloing Reisenjima T3 or certain HELMs. Simply that I hadn't seen it yet. I believed it was possible. GEO and COR support = party. I was saying it takes party support not that it takes a prebuff SMN only to solo.

Not sure why SMN solo is even mentioned in a nerf SMN thread. They aren't doing something so extraordinary that no other job can accomplish. AC might luckily take a huge chunk of life if the avatar is not disabled or killed on high content. But it's not avoiding mechanics solo.

[Rwolf]

Back to Astral Conduit. I don't think it is inherently bad. I agree that eventually enough changes made it capable of massively getting crazy when well geared and supported.

• The combination of multi attack, pet support/bubbles and speed of execution together is an issue with damage.
• It also has zero reason to use for Wards.
• It guarantees we're never going to see improvements to anything else like Wards effectiveness.

I don't even know how it gets to these suggestions to nerf SMN as a whole or into the ground completely. Regardless of decision to nerf AC. The dev team certainly does need to work on better pauses and mechanics during fights. The dev team is too small excuse in discussion is getting old.

Majority of fights are HP increase per player and time based. It is inherent that players will find the meta to be whatever is the fastest, safest, and easiest to execute reliably. You cannot fight that nature. Having fights being more about 100% kill it fast is going to always boil down to who does that best. Which means even if you burn SMN to ashes. The next meta will just have you bandwagon angry at the next job.

As long as combat is focused on zerg objective, kill as fast and overwhelmingly as possible. It will never change, just shift. Might as well put a monthly campaign in where <insert job> is "OP" this month. Because that's all nerfing a job into submission is.

Nerfing jobs to the point that it's rarely used and/or ineffective has never fixed this game. Distance didn't fix BST meta, mob nerfs did. GEO corrections didn't make it more likely to use BRD, BRD changes did and some ambuscade where NiTro lullaby was appealing.

There is a middle ground somewhere.

[saevel]

Back to Astral Conduit. I don't think it is inherently bad. I agree that eventually enough changes made it capable of massively getting crazy when well geared and supported.

• The combination of multi attack, pet support/bubbles and speed of execution together is an issue with damage.
• It also has zero reason to use for Wards.
• It guarantees we're never going to see improvements to anything else like Wards effectiveness.

I don't even know how it gets to these suggestions to nerf SMN as a whole or into the ground completely. Regardless of decision to nerf AC. The dev team certainly does need to work on better pauses and mechanics during fights. The dev team is too small excuse in discussion is getting old.

Majority of fights are HP increase per player and time based. It is inherent that players will find the meta to be whatever is the fastest, safest, and easiest to execute reliably. You cannot fight that nature. Having fights being more about 100% kill it fast is going to always boil down to who does that best. Which means even if you burn SMN to ashes. The next meta will just have you bandwagon angry at the next job.

As long as combat is focused on zerg objective, kill as fast and overwhelmingly as possible. It will never change, just shift. Might as well put a monthly campaign in where <insert job> is "OP" this month. Because that's all nerfing a job into submission is.

Nerfing jobs to the point that it's rarely used and/or ineffective has never fixed this game. Distance didn't fix BST meta, mob nerfs did. GEO corrections didn't make it more likely to use BRD, BRD changes did and some ambuscade where NiTro lullaby was appealing.

There is a middle ground somewhere.

There already is a solution, it's the same on used on BLM back when they used to time nuke / chain nuke all the High Level content to death.

We've already had a situation like this that was corrected before and I'm not talking about BST's. Many moons ago we had legions of BLM's lining up and time nuking / bursting NM's for obscene damage and this method was so safe and easy that it became the gold standard for all challenging content, especially after the Ranger nerf. SE's answer as to create a resistance wall that BLM's chain nuking would rapidly run into. The first two nukes would largely be unaffected but the third and subsequent nuke would rapidly diminish in damage, after a few seconds the resistance reset. This had the effect of not nerfing BLM's individual damage while preventing an army of BLMs from steamrolling everything. Something similar needs to happen to SMN's BP damage, an individual SMN won't be effected but a group of them would be.

[Frodnon]

Back to Astral Conduit. I don't think it is inherently bad. I agree that eventually enough changes made it capable of massively getting crazy when well geared and supported.

• The combination of multi attack, pet support/bubbles and speed of execution together is an issue with damage.
• It also has zero reason to use for Wards.
• It guarantees we're never going to see improvements to anything else like Wards effectiveness.

I don't even know how it gets to these suggestions to nerf SMN as a whole or into the ground completely. Regardless of decision to nerf AC. The dev team certainly does need to work on better pauses and mechanics during fights. The dev team is too small excuse in discussion is getting old.

Majority of fights are HP increase per player and time based. It is inherent that players will find the meta to be whatever is the fastest, safest, and easiest to execute reliably. You cannot fight that nature. Having fights being more about 100% kill it fast is going to always boil down to who does that best. Which means even if you burn SMN to ashes. The next meta will just have you bandwagon angry at the next job.

As long as combat is focused on zerg objective, kill as fast and overwhelmingly as possible. It will never change, just shift. Might as well put a monthly campaign in where <insert job> is "OP" this month. Because that's all nerfing a job into submission is.

Nerfing jobs to the point that it's rarely used and/or ineffective has never fixed this game. Distance didn't fix BST meta, mob nerfs did. GEO corrections didn't make it more likely to use BRD, BRD changes did and some ambuscade where NiTro lullaby was appealing.

There is a middle ground somewhere.

It does have a use for wards. 20% increase in buff duration.

[Rwolf]

Let's be real though, no one is using Astral Conduit for that. I meant it more as there's no good reason to.