Nerf SMN

[saevel]

My vote is still to buff other jobs rather than to bring others down.

So you want everyone to be doing 50K damage every 3~4 seconds while standing safely out of range? Guess we gotta give the NM's 10M HP to deal with that new power creep, and then raise the damage cap from 99K to 999K so the <new broke job> can deal 600K per attack and start the cycle all over again.

No SE needs to nerf SMN damage output by about 25%, especially under AC. It's the exact same problem BST had, doing amazing damage while being 100% safe. BST's brokenness had absolutely nothing to do with AoE's, nobody of any consequence cares about that, what they care about is how few people they can bring to a fight and still clear it in order to maximize the profits they make from charging others for the clear.

To anyone taking advantage of a broken mechanic everything looks perfectly normal, it's just confirmation bias. From a systemic point of view it's easy to spot broken mechanics by the sudden imbalance they create in the metagame. When everything is "Bubbly Bernie <Do You Need It> master SMN <Can I Have It>" then there is a problem. When the hardest NM's in the game can be consistently killed in under 60s by a group of SMN's, then there is a problem. When people decide that taking a group of SMN's makes everything magically snore fest easy to do, then there is a problem. Just a reiteration of the same issue there was with BST's and that resulted in a nerf, even while the users exploiting the BST mechanic was swearing up and down there will never be a nerf and the game was perfectly balanced. So yeah there is a nerf coming, I just hope it's not too hard of one cause I like a balanced diverse meta.

[Zeargi]

So you want everyone to be doing 50K damage every 3~4 seconds while standing safely out of range? Guess we gotta give the NM's 10M HP to deal with that new power creep, and then raise the damage cap from 99K to 999K so the <new broke job> can deal 600K per attack and start the cycle all over again.

There are already jobs that can do that kind of damage, and you've also have no grasp of SMN at all. 3-4s, hardly. SMN BP timer is 21 maybe 20 seconds. SAM, BLU, DRG, and DRK can all do far greater spike DMG than SMN can. Hell, even RNG and COR can do that kind of DMG while staying out of range of things. My LS was doing T2 Escha NMs, and every single fight the BLU and the DRK out did my DMG dealing 270,000+ DMG and that was without the requirement of using a 1hr ability like SMN has to.

No SE needs to nerf SMN damage output by about 25%, especially under AC. It's the exact same problem BST had, doing amazing damage while being 100% safe. BST's brokenness had absolutely nothing to do with AoE's, nobody of any consequence cares about that

It had everything to do with those AoE moves. How many of those Bandwagon BST used anything except that Grasshopper? And SMN hasn't changed with keeping it's distance from stuff. It's been like that since the job was introduced. The Trial Size Avatar fights, that was the whole mechanic. Use Carbuncle, run away, resummon, wait for engagement, and run some more, repeat. BLM and SMN are tied for having the worst DEF in the game. So I find it hard to believe, you would ask a BLM to hump a mob and try to cast while still functioning properly.

what they care about is how few people they can bring to a fight and still clear it in order to maximize the profits they make from charging others for the clear.

And that isn't SMNs fault. How many WHMs used to charge for raises in Valkurm Dunes or to use a Teleport Spell? How many LS charged for Dynamis/Sea/Sky Clears? How many PLDs have charged to be a tank for a fight? How many WARs charged for Cleaving in Abyssea? That is a community that is pure lazy and refused to help others.

To anyone taking advantage of a broken mechanic everything looks perfectly normal, it's just confirmation bias. From a systemic point of view it's easy to spot broken mechanics by the sudden imbalance they create in the metagame. When everything is "Bubbly Bernie <Do You Need It> master SMN <Can I Have It>" then there is a problem. When the hardest NM's in the game can be consistently killed in under 60s by a group of SMN's, then there is a problem. When people decide that taking a group of SMN's makes everything magically snore fest easy to do, then there is a problem. Just a reiteration of the same issue there was with BST's and that resulted in a nerf, even while the users exploiting the BST mechanic was swearing up and down there will never be a nerf and the game was perfectly balanced. So yeah there is a nerf coming, I just hope it's not too hard of one cause I like a balanced diverse meta.

SMN Burns are nothing new. Promy Fight back when it was a capped thing, People took 2-3 SMNs to Astral Flow the clears - claiming it had to be done that way. Waking the Beast (Carbuncle Prime) was done almost completely with an alliance of SMNs. But here you're saying that how dare these people take someone that has spent the time to MASTER a job to content. That is completely ludicrous that you're saying that at all. And what about those SMNs, have you taken the time to check what gear they have? A Nirvana, A Full Apogee set, a Helios Set, or many other vast array of pieces that are needed? People that don't understand and play a job, are equally bias. They're anger because X job isn't being taken, or Y job does things better. We as a community decide how the game is played and we can be the think tank to change things so that every job has an equal chance, but these witch hunts need to stop already.

[Eaglestrike]

There are already jobs that can do that kind of damage, and you've also have no grasp of SMN at all. 3-4s, hardly. SMN BP timer is 21 maybe 20 seconds. SAM, BLU, DRG, and DRK can all do far greater spike DMG than SMN can. Hell, even RNG and COR can do that kind of DMG while staying out of range of things. My LS was doing T2 Escha NMs, and every single fight the BLU and the DRK out did my DMG dealing 270,000+ DMG and that was without the requirement of using a 1hr ability like SMN has to.


It had everything to do with those AoE moves. How many of those Bandwagon BST used anything except that Grasshopper? And SMN hasn't changed with keeping it's distance from stuff. It's been like that since the job was introduced. The Trial Size Avatar fights, that was the whole mechanic. Use Carbuncle, run away, resummon, wait for engagement, and run some more, repeat. BLM and SMN are tied for having the worst DEF in the game. So I find it hard to believe, you would ask a BLM to hump a mob and try to cast while still functioning properly.


And that isn't SMNs fault. How many WHMs used to charge for raises in Valkurm Dunes or to use a Teleport Spell? How many LS charged for Dynamis/Sea/Sky Clears? How many PLDs have charged to be a tank for a fight? How many WARs charged for Cleaving in Abyssea? That is a community that is pure lazy and refused to help others.



SMN Burns are nothing new. Promy Fight back when it was a capped thing, People took 2-3 SMNs to Astral Flow the clears - claiming it had to be done that way. Waking the Beast (Carbuncle Prime) was done almost completely with an alliance of SMNs. But here you're saying that how dare these people take someone that has spent the time to MASTER a job to content. That is completely ludicrous that you're saying that at all. And what about those SMNs, have you taken the time to check what gear they have? A Nirvana, A Full Apogee set, a Helios Set, or many other vast array of pieces that are needed? People that don't understand and play a job, are equally bias. They're anger because X job isn't being taken, or Y job does things better. We as a community decide how the game is played and we can be the think tank to change things so that every job has an equal chance, but these witch hunts need to stop already.

You are the very reason a lot of the top tier players avoid the official forums, you clearly don't understand the balance issue at hand.

First: The strategy to kill nearly every single aeonic NM of note in the game is this: Tank, GEO, COR, SMN, SMN. Everything dies in less than a minute. I'm talking Kirin/Kouryu, Warder of Courage, Schah, Vinipata, etc. THEY DIE IN LESS THAN A MINUTE. The hardest bosses in the entire game die in a minute to this 5-man strategy. I have a buddy who has 5~ aeonics or so, he made a brand new char 4 months ago. Not an alt, a brand new, fresh account that's 4 months old has 5 aeonics.

Second: That strategy involves using Astral Conduit, which reduces BP recast to 0. So with these buffs a SMN can do 50k BP's...with no recast. This is a full minute of 50k damage spam, which is what Saevel mentioned. There's NOTHING in the game that can compete with that, which is why there's a thread asking to nerf SMN, because it's far above and beyond what any other job in this game is capable of.

Third: You claim MASTER in a job is some amazing accomplishment worthy of being able to mindlessly clear content. Before SMN burns were THE thing to do aeonic farming normally utilized MASTER of a variety of jobs, with some people shifting between two (or more) different MASTER jobs as fights required. But the aeonic fights would normally take 5-30min, where you would actually have to deal with the full mechanics of a fight. Whereas now you can get a couple SMN's to Conduit BP spam and Kirin's adds don't even reach the popping tank before Kirin is dead.

Fourth: Go watch a video yourself, youtube for "FFXI Kouryu SMN Burn". And just to note, most of the SMN's there don't have stars, so they're not even master. Fight took less than 90s and Kirin only popped one god before it died. If you don't understand how that is BROKEN and OVERPOWERED, well, there's not much discussion left to have.

[Songen]

So you want everyone to be doing 50K damage every 3~4 seconds while standing safely out of range? Guess we gotta give the NM's 10M HP to deal with that new power creep, and then raise the damage cap from 99K to 999K so the <new broke job> can deal 600K per attack and start the cycle all over again.

No SE needs to nerf SMN damage output by about 25%, especially under AC. It's the exact same problem BST had, doing amazing damage while being 100% safe. BST's brokenness had absolutely nothing to do with AoE's, nobody of any consequence cares about that, what they care about is how few people they can bring to a fight and still clear it in order to maximize the profits they make from charging others for the clear.

To anyone taking advantage of a broken mechanic everything looks perfectly normal, it's just confirmation bias. From a systemic point of view it's easy to spot broken mechanics by the sudden imbalance they create in the metagame. When everything is "Bubbly Bernie <Do You Need It> master SMN <Can I Have It>" then there is a problem. When the hardest NM's in the game can be consistently killed in under 60s by a group of SMN's, then there is a problem. When people decide that taking a group of SMN's makes everything magically snore fest easy to do, then there is a problem. Just a reiteration of the same issue there was with BST's and that resulted in a nerf, even while the users exploiting the BST mechanic was swearing up and down there will never be a nerf and the game was perfectly balanced. So yeah there is a nerf coming, I just hope it's not too hard of one cause I like a balanced diverse meta.

you seem to think we're trying to buff all jobs to 50k dmg? most are dealing 3-7k dmg even at 3000% tp(its these jobs were trying to bring forwards) , its rare to find a DD that can deal 50K consistantly every WS, infact, the average high dmg DD only deals about 15-35k, with the stronger spike dmg ones dealing 35-45K (not consistantly) (Thats at 3000% tp only, must have w/e AM on, have W/E rolls/abilitys on,so that means they need to lose 2 WSs in between which means even less dmg) 40-45k WSs (Since you need to build to 3000%tp)are only useful with SC style of partys, outside of that its more worth to just the WS when its ready.

[Nyarlko]

You are taking this personal. Sometimes people suggest making job adjustments, doesn't mean they're salty because they can't win or anything like that, nor have some irrational hatred about a job and want to "tear" it down.

I'm not taking it personal. ^^;; My statement was in response to the OP who most definitely was posting in personal anger and making irrational requests, however, it was also intended to be applied more broadly, sorry if I used odd syntax that made that hard to get across. :x You can replace the ">you<" in my statement with "any individual who is reading this" to get the point I was trying to make. ^^ The OP also lacked any form of evidence period, so yeah... I'll stand by my prior statements.
YOU (Afania) provided more evidence in support of a nerf than the OP, since you have one statement of evidence, while they had zero. ^^ I enjoy discussing job adjustments, but it's quite difficult to discuss anything when the only argument is "NERF IT TO THE GROUND BECAUSE I SAID SO!!!".

For the record, I do not play SMN, (I do have it leveled, but no room for gear,) and I'm against nerfing on principle. Nerfing players should always be a measure of last resort. Every system/opponent aspect should be examined and adjusted before nerfing players. I'm happy that the devs kinda-sorta agree with me on this, since the last few major combat adjustments have been nerfs to monsters, not players.

In order for me to agree w/ something, I need to know what I am agreeing to, and why I should be agreeing in the first place. Screaming for unspecified nerfs and revoking items gained by using a certain job/tactic is not something I am probably ever going to be able to agree to.

[Eaglestrike]

I'm against nerfing on principle. Nerfing players should always be a measure of last resort. Every system/opponent aspect should be examined and adjusted before nerfing players. I'm happy that the devs kinda-sorta agree with me on this, since the last few major combat adjustments have been nerfs to monsters, not players.

This is a fair way to look at things during the "BLU IS OP" era. And the way we got around that era was actually by buffing BRD and nerfing mobs. BLU still has a number of advantages, but it's not godly and way above everyone else like it was.

But that doesn't work for SMN. SMN is killing the hardest mobs in the game in seconds. If you buffed everyone to be able to do that everyone would be done the game next week.

[Eaglestrike]

At no point did I say I was "pissed off" that my buddy has a bunch of aeonics. I said it's a broken system. He's probably quitting soon because he can breeze through content so easily. You're not going to keep a functioning game around if all you need to do is hop on SMN, get a decent set and you can win any fight in the game. And most MMO players will always gravitate to the path of least resistance.

None of what you said explains why it should be possible to beat every boss in the game in a minute and a half...or less. And sure, you could beat some BCNM's at 75 cap days in a couple minutes...but I'm talking about the hardest bosses in the entire game. At no point could you kill Tiamat in 1-2min. When you could K club DRK zerg Kirin in a minute you know what they did? They nerfed it.

Also, I know some of those people in that video, they're not exactly considered top notch players, I am pretty certain two of the SMN's just tossed together gear only over the past few weeks because of the new SMN zerg strategy. So they very likely don't have stars on SMN, but they can clear Kirin easier than most other players of the game. Less effort for more reward, sounds totes balanced.

[Songen]

Edit:Screw it, i wrote a whole story here but i feel its simply adding to the ranting.
So to sum up,
I don't support the OP in terms of nerf the job entirely beyond the one ability that makes it overpowered.
And i most certainly don't support the remove all aeonic weapons attained by those who got em with smn.

[Khiril]

Edit:Screw it, i wrote a whole story here but i feel its simply adding to the ranting.
So to sum up,
I don't support the OP in terms of nerf the job entirely beyond the one ability that makes it overpowered.
And i most certainly don't support the remove all aeonic weapons attained by those who got em with smn.

So SMN is OP, but nerfing them isn't the answer?

Squares ONLY answer for 15 has been nerf.

Taking away their aeonics would never happen, obviously, but it would be damn hilarious. And deserved. Let's be honest, no one that plays SMN is good enough to use an Aeonic. That's why they have to play SMN, so nothing would be lost.

[Zeargi]

Taking away their aeonics would never happen, obviously, but it would be damn hilarious. And deserved. Let's be honest, no one that plays SMN is good enough to use an Aeonic. That's why they have to play SMN, so nothing would be lost.

Like seriously, who ran over your puppies? I play SMN because I love the job. It was the first job I unlocked, and was the 2nd job I got to 75. I played this MMO for the first few years alone, because NO ONE wanted SMN because it was only a super gimped healer. SMN has made great strides from where it started. And who are you to decide the value of a player? You've done nothing but be a toxic individual and are more part of the problem than the actual solution. You wonder why you keep getting banned, perhaps you should look at your gross demeanor towards others. Change the mobs so that others are forced to use things outside of this cookie cutter hive mentality. They did it with Ambuscade to GEO with that one mob that was immuned to their debuffs. Make it so that thresholds have to be met in order to progress.