To the devs: Why won't you nerf Geomancer?

[Jin_Uzuki]

Becomes a moot point tho if your party's GEO refuses to cast it on anyone, which is the most common situation that I run into.



And yet, the bread n' butter party setup has not changed much from day1. Tank + healer + support + 3x DD (of some sort) has always been the go-to setup because it makes sense. There are exceptions/variations of course depending on what your target/goal is, but that is our foundation. The fact that that IS still the baseline means that we are all essentially competing for the same support spot. And the fact that most groups looking for the 2x support setup would prefer to take GEO+GEO over GEO+RDM or GEO+BRD should be seen as an indication that BRD/RDM both need buffs.

Honestly, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. RDM will never ever compete with BRD, GEO and COR unless it's severely redesigned from scratch. I never heard of anyone getting a RDM instead of a COR and BRD. It's literally not an option from most people.


It's a completely different kind of support that these days is completely useless because MP are no longer an issue, everyone has haste and convert, etc. GEO could be nerfed to the ground and people would still not get a RDM. They would still get a GEO or a BRD or a COR.


The Job doesn't need a buff as much it needs to be redesigned or at least made more similar to SCH.

[OmnysValefor]

"Redesigned similar to SCH" Do you mean that SCH needs redesigned or RDM needs stances?

I also think it's never too late to just give the job staff skill and Myrkr.

Here's a quick idea. Make Dia III directly increase the target's damage taken by X%. Make Bio III directly decrease all form's of the boss's Damage dealt.

Edit: One of SCH's problems is that in group content, it's often detrimental to nuke and sometimes to Helix. You have to weigh whether the SCH's nukes will trigger/escalate a resist wall if you have enough BLMs.

It's why there's so many SCH's that only know how to skillchain. And tbh, not even tat. Most of these SCHs need to be told what spells to cast to make the skillchain.

[Shiyo]

So you disagreed with me, then admitted other healers can work.

O...k.
WHM is overpowered at being a healer but healing doesn't kill bosses.

You can kill a lot of bosses with a trust healers(which don't scale the mob up) or a more offensive healer that makes the mob die faster.

On the harder content you'll generally always want a WHM, though.

Also, why do I need to prove something? People can kill aeonic NM's without geo and do it all the time.

Nearly anytime you're bringing a mage comp over a melee comp is inefficient and bad(not always, most of the time). The majority of this player base defaults to mage comps for a lot of stuff still.

You literally posted just to try to attack me, that isn't cool. I suggest you stop, omnys.

Anyways, why isn't geo being nerfed?

[OmnysValefor]

The point was to highlight the weaknesses of RDM and SCH in many settings. They can work. To a certain point on certain bosses, SCH can work.

I once helped a mnk/whm clear Neak. I can cure myself, easily, through that fight. Stona is the ponly problem. It's probably the only fight that I'd let a monk heal lol.

Yes, many jobs can work but they are severely suboptimal. It's a mistake to bring them to a lot of fights.

I don't like it but it is what it is.

I like to do fights, figure out what the problem is, and correct it. I don't like to do fights, know what the problem is, and percist through trying what I know is causing the problem.

[Diavolo]

I have to echo Jin's comments that nerfing GEO wouldn't do anything to make RDM more appealing.

RDM's strength within a party used to come largely in its ability to refresh, help heal and enfeeble while having an almost endless MP pool thanks to Convert. Absolutely all of its strengths have been marginalized and it's not the introduction of newer jobs that led us to this point, it's our constant cry for "more accessible" content. Wanted battles and Ambuscade are typically short fights with MP and HP reset to full upon entry. Escha/Reis provides a wealth of vorseals and temporary items. WHM's gear practically makes it self-sustaining, no longer needing support of any kind. MP management used to be a skill that separated the noobs from the skilled players, now no one stops to think about it for even a second. Even enfeebles were a form of MP management, servng practical functions that could sometimes make or break a fight, mitigating the damage received and a healer's/PLD's MP spent, but at a time where no one ever runs out of MP the job's strength has been almost completely erased. How do you bring that back in the current environment? The short answer is that you don't because you no longer want it.

[Jin_Uzuki]

"Redesigned similar to SCH" Do you mean that SCH needs redesigned or RDM needs stances?

I'm saying that the only way for RDM to be relevant again is that they make it similar to SCH. The only other option is to completely redesign the job. As Diavolo said, RDM "strengths" are completely trivialized by today gameplay, it's a job designed for another kind of gameplay (Much slower, methodical and based on managing MP) and no longer supported today. Remember why so many people didn't use WHM but used RDM during Level 75 merit parties? Refresh, convert and haste. Well everyone has convert and refresh gears literally fall from the sky now. MP management is no longer an issue, so you don't get a job that it's good at both roles, you get a BLM and a WHM.

Even just the ability to self sc would land the job a spot in many parties for example. And I say SCH because in a sense the job is very similar to RDM already, ability to nuke/heal, ability to recover MP and some buffs so it was my first idea. Because honestly I can't even imagine how RDM could ever become relevant again today.

[Zeargi]

It's that so many NM and Enemies that resist EVERYTHING when it comes to normal type spells, so rather than nerf GEO, it's likely better to buff the spells that others cast. There are lots of support classes that could use some work: DNC, RDM, COR, and BRD. Hell even, SMN could use a boost to some of the other wards it's got. I got turned down for a Leviathan HTB because they were saying they didn't want SMN buffs, and were demanding me to change to a GEO.

[Shiyo]

Summoner is one of the best mages and in a very, very, VERY good spot with it's supportive things.

Games community is just silly.

250 TP bonus + hastega2 + warcry + enfire(not vs leviathan) + 20-25% double attack(prob not going to want to use ifrit on levi though - so 12%+ crit from ramuh) and possibility of earthern ward on things its useful on? Yes please.

[OmnysValefor]

I'm saying that the only way for RDM to be relevant again is that they make it similar to SCH. The only other option is to completely redesign the job. As Diavolo said, RDM "strengths" are completely trivialized by today gameplay, it's a job designed for another kind of gameplay (Much slower, methodical and based on managing MP) and no longer supported today. Remember why so many people didn't use WHM but used RDM during Level 75 merit parties? Refresh, convert and haste. Well everyone has convert and refresh gears literally fall from the sky now. MP management is no longer an issue, so you don't get a job that it's good at both roles, you get a BLM and a WHM.

Even just the ability to self sc would land the job a spot in many parties for example. And I say SCH because in a sense the job is very similar to RDM already, ability to nuke/heal, ability to recover MP and some buffs so it was my first idea. Because honestly I can't even imagine how RDM could ever become relevant again today.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I do think the last thing this game needs is another mage who can self-skillchain.

I asked which you meant because I think one of the things that holds SE back from RDM adjustments is that it's not constrained by anything. It has no spell limit, it has no stratagems are Arts. If competent melee and mage, RDM/DRK would be an equipset away from changing roles midfight.

[Elexia]

As well as (Good) RDM being too powerful at one point which is why SE never touched it when every other jobs were getting buffs and the like, but that eventually lead to it falling behind.

And for a time, RDM was the only job that could solo quite a lot of alliance based fights, especially in the older days. People claimed BLM and WHM could too but I've never seen the evidence of it.

It's that so many NM and Enemies that resist EVERYTHING when it comes to normal type spells, so rather than nerf GEO, it's likely better to buff the spells that others cast. There are lots of support classes that could use some work: DNC, RDM, COR, and BRD. Hell even, SMN could use a boost to some of the other wards it's got. I got turned down for a Leviathan HTB because they were saying they didn't want SMN buffs, and were demanding me to change to a GEO.

I think I see the main problem is it's just people forgetting this is how FFXI has always been with support roles. People turn down people all the time for asinine reasons and people turn down others because they only wanted BRD/CORs for the buffs they give. That is, if you've played the game long enough to remember "change to BRD/COR" despite having other things leveled.

As said, if GEO gets resisted you negate a majority of the job's mechanics. NMs and such have always been resistant to all hell to debuffs to some degree, even more so after SE combated burn setups so that's nothing new, but some skilled (and geared) mages were able to land certain debuffs and blue mage above all had trouble with its debuffs, due to high mp cost/inefficient to cast at times since they could use certain debuffs at the time no other job could directly, you didn't see people say "change to blu" because for the longest, BLUs were shunned from end-game content unless they just dragged you along. GEO has nice buffs and debuffs and SMN has always gotten the short end since SE hasn't ever really adjusted it to a nice standing, but it's also not useless either especially if you had Fenrir and later Diabolos back in the day. People want the path of least resistance and if you've played XI long enough, you should remember BRD rotations through entire alliance to pop 4+ songs for that very reason.

Heck I don't think I've seen SMN get love outside of LS groups simply because the stigma that most SMNs are just trash. It happened with BLU, it happened with DNC, it happened with SCH it happened with PUP it happened with BST (main stigma was it kills exp) and so on, things changed dramatically over the years, now everyone wants a (good - keyword) blu, everyone wants geo because a mastered (keyword) geo is amazing, but people act as if you can just burn these jobs to 99 and be superior to everyone else without any work or effort.

As for RDM relevancy, it simply depends on the content design and gear design, because these days people are FAR, FAR more self reliant they simply don't need the RDM crutch anymore because a big part of RDM's support was haste and refresh and access to MBing, cures and debuffs, however these days with introduction of JP and content introduced with escha and so on, Geomancer simply lucks out because it was designed in the "new" XI.

That's my biggest gripe with XI post abyssea, because it change the foundation of the game far too much far too quickly. I didn't hate abyssea in terms of content, I hated the outcome of it, since we all (if actually played) remember when they introduced Legion and how people were clueless on what's happening because they grown to attached to being super humans with unlimited HP/MP/TP etc since in abyssea, support jobs were largely...useless in a way depending on atma setup, but some fights still needed the support, for example BRD's Sentinel's Scherzo being an absolute crutch...that is no longer needed these days because there's a good chance you have some kind of passive buffs, be it vorseals or temp items that gives you just as much if not more support.

So there really is little they can do to adjust other jobs to bring it "up to speed" unless they go back to making content laughable, but even like back in the Sky/Sea/Einherjar days of XI, not just anyone can be x job and make or break a content run, I'm sure we all remember terrible BRD/COR/RDM/PLD/WHM/THF etc that hindered more than helped, the same happens with the so called OP jobs like SAM/GEO/BLU.