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  1. #21
    Player OmnysValefor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fae View Post
    When comparing GEO to BRD this is what the typical player does:
    BRD: can boost attack by static amount
    GEO: Can lower def and raise attack by high % amounts

    OMG GEO SO MUCH BETTER.

    The problem is the typical player isn't really looking at the big picture, and hates complicated ideas because they require them to think and consider many things at a time rather than have simple powerful ideas that are easy to repeat. This is a downfall of human nature, not just ffxi players, a lot of the power of BRD isn't in such simple comparisons.
    When you're giving one spot to a buffer, you have to consider who gives the larger effective gain. Static attack buffs DO add to the base amount, making percentage buffs (berserk, fury, etc) stronger but since one geo will give more attack than one bard, that really matters.

    Especially in lowman content, which is what most of the game is.

    GEO has a limit on spells over BRD. Basically:
    - 1 Spell is empowered with GEO job abilities and geomancy+, up to 75% potency. In return the Buff cannot be moved and can take damage. On monsters that do not have a lot of AoE damage and with very good sets of DT and Luopan Regen, 75% potency - boost can be maintained full time (10 min cap on luopans and Blaze of Glory and Ecliptic are 10 min recasts).
    - 1 Spell is empowered with geomancy +, and the GEO must be in range to use it as it is an area effect around them.
    - 1 Spell can be entrusted, losing geomancy+ and given as an aura to a selected player. The recast on this JA is longer than the duration of the indi- spell meaning it can't be up full time.
    These are all true. Luckily (honestly), most NMs do have aoes. Now it is true that the bubble can also be moved (highlighting it from menu and pressing control+left/right) but this is a cumbersome process and doesn't always protect the bubble from aoes, but it will from conals.

    GEO spells are also lost on starting many fights, including all of Escha and UNMs. Meaning if fights are short, potency can not be maintained without going to get revitalizers all the time which isn't reasonable since they are short fights.

    Having your buffs immovable, reset, limited to less than 3, and your most powerful version taking damage are very, very big drawbacks but not talked about because GEO is so potent.
    Correct.

    For BRD to compete, it's TOTAL power has to equate to that of GEO's 2.5 spells. However when people are makign comparisons, they are comparing 2 songs to 2 GEO debuffs when they were never made or meant to be equal from a design perspective. Let us take a look at why:
    I'd love to know why 2.5 is the number you picked. A JSE Bard can do 3 songs (full time) in comparison to a Dunna's 2 bubbles full time and weaker bubble half time.

    - BRD has up to 5 songs as buffs active on one person at a time. These songs can last over 11 minutes and are not reset for engagements and are not grounded to their location, or use auras.
    - BRD can give different people different buffs. This already on top of their higher song limits vs geo spell limits, pushes them even further into use.
    - BRD Debuffs are not included in any caps whatsoever, so you can basically always have access to them as long as they can land. BRD gets extremely high combined skill and thus magic accuracy.
    - BRD is without question, the best crowd control in the game, where as GEO has no AoE crowd control whatsoever natively.
    - BRD Buffs STACK with GEO buffs. Meaning if you did precision + torpor + entrust DEX and need more accuracy, adding a 2nd GEO isn't going to give you a lot of mileage that way. You could do 75% empowered Geo-Precision and Geo-Torpor and gain some attack defense boosts which is usually the way people tend to go because GEO is so ubiquitous. It is not however the way you should go if you want to max party slots.

    Take these facts along with the fact most people do not know how to use BRD to it's potential (suggesting you do Threnody II instead of bringing a 2nd GEO so you can do languor will make most people roll their eyes or get angry even though it's an extremely potent magic evasion debuff and INT songs are things too for magic acc/base damage boosts), and you get a very lopsided misinformed rhetoric, that is repeated, and repeated again and never actually examined.
    Unless they've changed something, threnodies (single-target magic-evasion-down) do not stack, meaning that if you want to be able to nuke the mob and enfeeble/stun it, GEO is probably going to be superior.

    The detriments of GEO and the benefits of BRD would be more discussed if people were more informed and didn't shy from more complicated ideas and didn't directly compare 2 songs to everything a GEO can offer so often.
    I know three RME bards, one (maybe two? never seen his bard) with afterglow carn. He had Horn and Harp always at max level when these were each tedious/hard/expensive things. He doesn't yet have Aeonic instrument, but will soon (we're a few HELMs away).

    - Minne x2, March x2, Scherzo on Tank (Geo can't offer a scherzo like spell, and haste for tanks is often forgotten even though things like how often you flash and reprisal recasts are very important)
    - Ballad x2, March x2, Scherzo on Healer (Recasts are important for a WHM as well, and while mana issues are far less these days extra MP allows you to be less conservative as a WHM)
    Ballads aren't generally needed, especially for a whm that doesn't needlessly overcure. Marches can be nice but with a fair amount of haste on gear you're curing in, plus Haste / Haste II and /rdm or /sch (which is more preferable frequently), your recasts are pretty good.


    - March x2, Minuet x2 or Etude x2 or Madrigal x2 or Prelude x2, Scherzo on DD
    - March x2 or Ballad x2, Etude x2, Scherzo on Mages
    You love bringing up Scherzo. In a mage-oriented fight, the tank is the only one usually taking significant damage and most things aren't going to kill a good Paladin or Rune Fencer. Usually, if the tank dies, something went wrong first. Outside of Death Strategies, Ballad isn't a must either (it's not a must there, but it is nice).

    If you don't deem Scherzo as necessary for a fight you can also replace it with something else, but it's duration with CC is over 23 mins.

    Now let's combine that with debuffs:
    - Threnody II for up to 360 elemental evasion down, 180 without potency boosts
    - Elegy for potent 50% slow
    - Nocturne for potent addle effecct
    - Light Based extremely accurate dispel from finale
    Enfeebles (Slow particularly) just aren't hugely important. Nocturne is nice, but doesn't stack with addle. BG says "Nothing about Nocturne's [potency] has been quantified", which made me laugh.

    The other mistake people make is comparing things like threnody II to Gambit/Rayke which will always increase damage, but threnody just like if magic acc is capped and you use langour or frazzle will not increase damage.

    GEO is used more than BRD, but one big reason for that is GEO can be very lazy and people are lazy. BRD to be fully effective has a LOT to do. Which most bards just... don't do. GEO on the other hand is infamous now for being a job you can cast 3 spells with JA on and afk for 10 mins on a lot of fights. Not that they SHOULD but it's simply something people do. Comparing all of above, BRD's additive power is very strong and very large. The one thing it can't bring to the table that GEO can do is lowering physical and magical defense so much. GEO becomes a powerhouse simply because of geo-malaise and geo-frailty being so strong. They also do not have to deal with resists to lower magic evasion like RDM or BRD does making them consistent. GEO is also very good for pet jobs, because BRD can not do a single thing to boost Pet damage, but through the use of powerful debuffs, Pet jobs are greatly benefited. Nothing in the game will boost damage as much as Geo-Frailty or Geo-Malaise, it can more than triple damage of either physical or magical damage, and geo-malaise especially is on a level far above what any other source can lower magic defense. It's those reasons GEO is used. In a DD setup it is actually optimal in most situations to bring a GEO for indi-fury, geo-frailty, and let the brd handle accuracy boosts, base attack boosts (which also helps fury) and marches and adding safety with scherzo.
    If a geo's bubble dies, the geo recasts it. If a bard's songs are dispelled (can song effects be absorbed? probably but not sure), this takes a lot of time to recast. If you're rotating two two or three parties, this takes more time, if the dispel is wide.

    So going forward, I hope people will compare ALL of BRD to ALL of GEO at least[...]
    I try to play a little bit of devi's advocate in these discussions, but it sounds silly to repeatedly bring them up. I'm not saying you have, but that's why I don't.

    Sometimes it's nice to say it short and sweet, bard is outdated and could use a look. If SE does not think Bard needs a buff, I would appreciate if they explained why in detail. "They serve different roles", is not enough of an answer.

    Edit: Also, in many situations, a Dunna GEO is superior to an RME bard.

    Nerf Idris? Makes the game harder on everyone. Nerf Dunna? Makes the game harder on people who need the help the most (since Bard is generally suboptimal). Update Bard

    Please forgive me, I forgot that Bard's ability to prebuff also has the flaw of not actually needing it to participate in the fight. I'd go so far as to say that the songs are nice while they're up, but if they get dispelled, it's not a big deal in many situations (mage-Kouryu being a great example). Is it worth keeping the bard in for the full fight and adding to the HP of the monster when they're not really going to contribute much else throughout the fight?

    Koryu will probably Hurricane Wing, dispelling everything but losing songs for the remainder of the fight (bard being outside) probably isn't the difference between whether you win or lose.
    (3)
    Last edited by OmnysValefor; 10-31-2016 at 05:02 AM.

  2. #22
    Player Shiyo's Avatar
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    Rebalancing the game around idris not being so incredibly overpowered would be better for the game as a whole IMO.
    (2)

  3. #23
    Player OmnysValefor's Avatar
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    You can't nerf Idris or nerf Dunna without only making the game harder. Removing GEO from the game wouldn't change the fact that Bard is not enough of a replacement in many situations. Nerfing Idris and Dunna requires nerfing many fights. I'm not concerned about the people doing Aeonic Farms, they'll probably be fine, but the people still working on lower tiers will be hurt worse. The people where I'm at, on the last leg of first Aeonic will also be hurt.

    Future content, whatever that is, will have to be designed appropriately.

    The problem is too that the comparison should really just be 3 song Mythic Bard to Idris GEO and that connection is miles apart.

    To be honest, as an RME Paladin, I find Rune Fencer a little unfair at times but PLD still has a lot of use so I'm not complaining.
    (1)

  4. #24
    Player Fae's Avatar
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    Threnody II values listed aren't stacked, that's just threondy II's potency. Dispel is an issue but not always, where as aoe damage is something almost every mob has so is always a concern for GEO.

    Comparing raw numbers of one set of buffs to each other is what people do wrong with BRD vs GEO, it's not an intelligent conversation.

    Giving buffs to bard is not a good solution, and I stated why.

    Scherzo is still important in many mage fights, Teles for example. Hate resets or charm and one tp move can mean the back line is dead, or charm. Scherzo is an added safety bonus of bard often ignored.
    (0)
    Last edited by Fae; 10-31-2016 at 06:55 AM.

  5. #25
    Player Olor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OmnysValefor View Post

    It's time to give bard something. Just give it to them.
    Yes, please, something to make brd competitive for NQ folks would be really welcome. Basically I think a brd with only Oboro weapon and mid tier 119 gear should be as good as a GEO with only dunna and mid tier 119 gear. Right now there is no contest.

    Right now it's arguable a BRD with one or more RME can still be below a dunna GEO.

    BRD needs a boost.... cause yeah, you can work like a dog keeping multiple different songs on every player etc, but even with working twice as hard you're often just not going to add as much to a party as a GEO no matter how hard you work.
    (0)
    Last edited by Olor; 10-31-2016 at 06:59 AM.
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  6. #26
    Player Fae's Avatar
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    And the push for the game being steadily dumbed down marches on. Get it, it's a bard joke cuz marches but it's actually really sad because we're making the game dumber and easier instead of actually becoming better players and using what is already there and asking for stuff for free because complaining is easier than actually working at something. Balance changes should come in the form of nerfs or be balanced with content changes if buffs.
    (1)

  7. #27
    Player OmnysValefor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fae View Post
    Threnody II values listed aren't stacked, that's just threondy II's potency. Dispel is an issue but not always, where as aoe damage is something almost every mob has so is always a concern for GEO.

    Comparing raw numbers of one set of buffs to each other is what people do wrong with BRD vs GEO, it's not an intelligent conversation.

    Giving buffs to bard is not a good solution, and I stated why.

    Scherzo is still important in many mage fights, Teles for example. Hate resets or charm and one tp move can mean the back line is dead, or charm. Scherzo is an added safety bonus of bard often ignored.
    Threnodies don't stack as in you can't have multiple on the same target (Say Dark Threnody and Ice Threnody).

    When you're considering -one spot-, which is most of what the game is, even some of the highest content, straight-vs does matter.

    I have not fought Teles yet but I know the charm is a problem, I didn't say mages never take damage, I said they usually don't. I'm not saying Scherzo is just worthless, but on a lot of fights, it's not worth it.

    Let's not forget the other things GEO can do: Impact, Stun, MB if light on nukers, and sometimes sleep. Yes, many other jobs in the alli can sleep, but they may be busy with other things.

    Bard has scherzo, which doesn't always protect. Multi-hit killshots frequently don't trigger Scherzo because no single hit exceeded the threshold.

    GEO has Vex/Attune (only magic evasion, not -mdt or +mdb), Wilt/Barrier (which will reduce the potency of all physical hits) and Fend/Fade (+mdb/-mab).

    It's not unintelligent just because you don't agree.
    (2)

  8. #28
    Player Olor's Avatar
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    And it isn't "dumbing the game down" to have 2 jobs that can fulfill the role of buffer equally well. We're not suggesting increasing party size or making bard better than GEO - just making BRD good enough to make it so there is more of a choice about what jobs to bring to content - that doesn't make the game easier really, it just means more people can have more fun in more configurations.
    (0)
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  9. #29
    Player OmnysValefor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fae View Post
    And the push for the game being steadily dumbed down...
    Has nothing to do with dumbing it down or making it easier. It's a sad state when a RME [job] is regularly outclassed by a JSE that shares the same role. Yes, they stack but frequently it's not worth stacking them.

    I'm not bringing Bard to fights for scherzo and refresh that don't need it and I'm wanting the game easier? Most other cases, GEO just does better. It's not 50/50 or probably even 75/25 and that's pretty sad.
    (1)

  10. #30
    Player Fae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OmnysValefor View Post
    It's not unintelligent just because you don't agree.
    You're right, good thing that has nothing to do with why I said what I said, and as in other threads, you tend to purposefully try to misinterpret the other person to make your own position stronger whether you do it through red herring, strawman, or just good old cherry picking all of it has the same effect, it makes it a lot less worthwhile to reply. It leads to running around in circles accomplishing nothing. You're clearly set on your views which I won't hold against you, and I won't hold this against you either but you have less game knowledge and experience than me and while I tend to not discount people on that alone, it goes miles further for stating your perspective if you can admit as much. I've said my view and answers to things like why 2.5 bubbles already (only 2 is geomancy enhanced, and entrust isn't up full time). What you're doing will only get emotional upvotes from people that already share your view, there's very little actual debate on here and informed posts are usually met with the maximum hostility moderators here allow which thankfully isn't much but it still leads to nothing accomplished and for the most part, people ignoring what was said if they don't agree with it. For example all you said in your post had some truth to it, but you purposefully left out context, weights and amounts which purposefully paints a false picture, to a smart outside observer this lends your posts less weight not more, and though it can be effective at swaying people that don't care about the integrity of the argument or getting agreements from those who already agree with you, it's not a worthwhile discussion. What my comment said and was stated to mean is comparing a part of what BRD does to all of what GEO does, and that is the branded comparison made everywhere, is not an intelligent conversation or a good place to talk about design or balance.

    As soon as balance changes are made, those other parts of BRD will still be there even if we do not currently use them, which something is favored some people tend to get the most use out of it they can that is the problem of balancing around lazy or low play. Example, before the evasion nerf DD wins on high end content was still done. Now it's just done stupidly well by those same people that could do it before, talking sub 3 min wins on WoC and Teles. SE made the game easier, yet again, by popular demand. And now what was some of the hardest fights in the game is a trivial sub 3 min fight for people that could beat it before anyway. And what new content do we have to replace it now that it is easier? hmmm. It's been a problem since the game came out really, except now we don't have as fast a dev cycle to keep up and we are using temporary content so its like burning the candle at both ends. And yet here we are, people yet again saying buff don't nerf, and make every job stronger if there is any problem, and at the same time make content easier. I don't like it one bit, let alone agree. Geo-Malaise and Geo-Frailty in their current forms are too strong I think SE didn't intend them to be this strong, but if they do nerf those now it will shut the gates on fledgling Aeonic LS as well as directly affect pet jobs. Geo-Acumen and Geo-Fury are fine, but when you start reducing defenses... it tends to have a gigantic effect on damage output (which btw is also part of the power equation for what makes BLU so strong with it's potent Def downs but that is another thread). BRD could stand to be more useful to mage setups, and perhaps have accuracy boosts on threnody II over what they have but for DD setups it's already required to have one on anything hard and they are required on anything that needs crowd control. Threnody II can't "stack" as you put it, but neither do Storms II and you almost always focus on one elemental damage at a time due to elemental weaknesses and Storms being so strong. Any time you buff a job, you're making the game easier.

    And yes, FFXI has been dumbed down steadily year after year, sometimes they release new content or harder content. But the "hard" we know today is nothing like the "hard" of yesteryear except maybe master trials and things are made constantly easier, usually by popular demand because people want things handed for free others already worked hard for. BLU in its current form makes the game easier and people want to "buff every other DD job" to make up for it, making the entire game easier. GEO in its current form makes the game easier due to Geo-Malaise and Geo-Frailty, having BRD be comparable would give you stacking effects making the game even easier... there's no way of looking at things it isn't dumbed down by buffing. You make jobs stronger, content is easier, which makes it dumber. The only counter to that is new hard content, this has the effect of phasing out old content and bringing in the new. Ambuscade is our new content, and it is temp content, I'm not sure what they have planned for next year, but I'm going to doubt it will be harder than master trials or aeonic quests, and if I'm right then all these buffs you guys are pushing for will soon leave the game even easier. It's not really the ffxi I fell in love with in the first place if it's made too easy and doesn't take a lot of game knowledge, effort and teamwork to pull off the challenge is what makes it rewarding. I know not everyone thinks that way, but there's no way I'd have so many close friends in game and it'd keep me paying monthly if it was sufficiently dumbed down and I don't like that it steadily goes that way. Buffs should be very situational to address any balance issue not lathered and dumped on to everything that isn't favored and strong, it's counter productive to game quality.
    (1)

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