BLU Balance

[Afania]

You can easily reset JA's now with a variety of methods, that is no concern. Also your concern is why SE needs to BUFF, other jobs. Notice how in your comparison its 1h vs 2hrs? Yes, 2h needs an update. You could say the same thing about DNC vs those other DD and get the same result. Those DD have come a little bit further (keep in mind they all have secondary benefits such as warcry, stun, SC properties and angon) but SE needs more buffs to them and only slight buffs. BLU has ALWAYS had the benefits you are stating, the extra defense and self buffs. They have always had this and a DD competitve edge since Abyssea, so your point is moot. We need BUFFS to 2h jobs, not a nerf to other jobs.

Regarding buff jobs, people already went over this on AH over and over.

1)It's less work to nerf 1 job and more work to buff 5+ jobs. From the reward ratio perspective they accomplish the same result with less work. With current dev team resource it only makes more sense to accomplish the result using less resource.

2)If SE buff every other DD to surpass BLU's DPS, the player community will obtain DPS power that's much stronger than what we currently have, thus making the content easier....when majority of them are already very easy. It only hurt the game as a whole.

3)Majority of DD job is currently quite "balanced" in terms of DPS, asides from MNK, PUP probably. If SE changed the DPS hierarchy and make BLU way inferior to 2h like 75 era, people aren't gonna be happy again.

Back when SAM and MNK was the top DD, there was demand in perfect DPS hierarchy balance, such as this post:

Lets play the number game! Here is the how the game work we take a Number ... Lets say 700,000. This being the Damage expected from every DD in a Delve (no these are not real numbers it is just an visual thing).
So For this Delve we will have 4 DDs; SAM, PUP, BST, and Blu, with a SCH & Bard for support.

SAM - Deals 700,000 using ws/normal hits
PUP - The player should deal at least 350,000 and their puppet (we'll say they use Sharpshot) the other 350,000 equaling 700,000
BST - Same as Pup but maybe more a 450,000/250,000 split or 250/450 depending on the pet they use
BLU - WS/Spells etc 700,000 total
SCH - we will say at least 150,000 in nukes while healing everyone
BRD - oh! Sings song, maybe melee a little (because it is an awesome battle bard) 150k in dmg but great support.


That would be a balance. Again all things being equal (gear level) the numbers at the end should be the very close to each other. The path to get to said numbers will be different for every job. I.E. SAM is going to be spamming Weaponskill & making skill chains (that is what they do), PUP is going to be working with their puppet to do the dmg, BST has their critter to help in conjunction with their not own melee dmg, Blue well we all know what they do SPIKE DMG from spells + Skillchains, etc... etc... etc...

In other words, people were asking SAM, BLU, WAR, PUP all deal same level of DPS. And now SAM, BLU, WAR all deal pretty much same level of DPS but I see people start to ask 2h buff instead?

Exactly what'd you all want? If BLU, SAM, WAR deal same level of DPS people aren't happy and ask for 2h buffs. If BLU deals less DPS people also aren't happy and ask every job to deal same DPS?

Playerbase are never happy with job balance, even if SE buff every 2h massively to a point to surpass BLU greatly to offset the versatility, I'd expect to see army of "my BLU can't win parse anymore Q.Q" post on OF. That's why I propose MG adjustment rather than buffing 2h.

4) You brought up Angon and stuns from other DD jobs, guess what, BLU can do BOTH with sudden lunge and Tenebral Crush, with recast so low that you can literally spam it.

Warcry is a pretty strong DD buff so I'll give you credit for that. But it also has 1min duration v.s MG is 5 min and can be fulltimed with 2 BLUs.

Conclusion: Due to the above reasons, I see MG adjustment being a more reasonable way to address BLU issue. I don't see buffing other DD being anywhere close to perfect solution, personally.

I think people are anti nerf because of the word "nerf" triggers negative reaction. Majority of the anti nerf opinions doesn't base on the reward:effort ratio when making job adjustments, nor the consequences after 2h DPS buff. They just don't want a nerf because BLU is their main and favorite job and subjectively don't want a nerf.

[Afania]

To sum up my opinion after months of months of debate on AH and here, here's my thought about DD balance.

Based on spreadsheet result, I think BLU deals way too much DPS with what it can do currently, the gap between BLU and other none DPS, such as WAR, is so small that it's almost none-existent. With what BLU can bring to the table it should do less DPS.

But I also think if the DPS gap between BLU and WAR increases to delve 1/2 era level, or even 75 era level, then BLU aren't going to get invite anymore. People will just bandwagon next strongest DPS, such as WAR.

Thus IMHO the best solution to address this issue is to make stacking 2x BLU in pt setup less appealing to pt organizers, such as removing the haste effect and/or defense stacking.

Like all the anti nerf people said, even without MG haste you could just use entrust haste, MG adjustment doesn't hurt BLU much, if at all. Nor it create a scenario that everyone suddenly say "no" to BLU wanting to join the pt, considering BLU DPS remains the same. It only means pt organizers won't have ANY reason to shout for BLU only nor able to abuse BLU x2 setup in melee content. It's a win win situation for both BLU, and none BLU DD players.

[Diavolo]

Do you play BLU, Afania? I asked this question to the OP and they sidestepped it.

[Afania]

Do you play BLU, Afania? I asked this question to the OP and they sidestepped it.

May I ask you one question before I answer? Why is it an important factor that someone plays BLU or not in a BLU balance discussion?

I'm not sidestepping it, but I don't think it's fair to judge how legit the opinions are based on whether someone plays BLU or not. It's often a concern brought up in BLU DPS discussion repeatedly, with everyone claiming "you want a nerf because you don't play BLU", despite several people pro nerf people in the discussion that I know of has high end BLU.

[Diavolo]

May I ask you one question before I answer? Why is it an important factor that someone plays BLU or not in a BLU balance discussion?

I'm not sidestepping it, but I don't think it's fair to judge how legit the opinions are based on whether someone plays BLU or not. It's often a concern brought up in BLU DPS discussion repeatedly, with everyone claiming "you want a nerf because you don't play BLU", despite several people pro nerf people in the discussion that I know of has high end BLU.

I'll take that as a no.

It's double standards. You're quick to judge a job you do not play. You are also quick to point out that some of the BLUs that do play support your opinion. Well, this is the other side of the coin.

Go spend some time with the job and attempt to do the things you and many detractors claim are possible, such as reliably clearing VD avatars in a few minutes. I think many opinions would be changed with some firsthand experience.

[Afania]

I'll take that as a no.

I read my reply, over and over, which is this:

May I ask you one question before I answer? Why is it an important factor that someone plays BLU or not in a BLU balance discussion?

I'm not sidestepping it, but I don't think it's fair to judge how legit the opinions are based on whether someone plays BLU or not. It's often a concern brought up in BLU DPS discussion repeatedly, with everyone claiming "you want a nerf because you don't play BLU", despite several people pro nerf people in the discussion that I know of has high end BLU.

None of them sent out a "no" msg. Idk who's quick to jump to the conclusion here.

I didn't even answer your question and you quickly jump into conclusion that "Afania doesn't play BLU", then proceed to basically write off ALL of my opinion by disagree with an opinion that's NOT even presented by me, but by someone else.

I see that was your goal when you asked the question anyways, that's why I questioned your motivation. And it seems that I'm correct about your motivation.

If you read my argument about BLU instead of skipping them, or confusing my post with OPs, you'd know that none of my opinion ever touch VD solo abilities, nor I care about BLU's solo abilities. I only ever expressed opinion about MG mechanic favoring 2x BLU setup and encourage people invite 2 BLU over 1 BLU 1 DD or 2 DD in pt.

Also before you use the "Oh you don't play BLU so your opinion doesn't count" tactic, why don't you use the same tactics on Comeatmebro who has better gears than majority of career BLUs and still support BLU nerf?

Back to your question, BLU is my first job, I've been playing since 75 and before it got bandwagoned to death like it today. I'm not CAREER BLU nor even MAIN BLU, and I only play it in easy content like Ambuscade Vol 2, or dynamis, or when I wanted to solo some stuff that needs aoe or shadows or sleeps. My BLU isn't high end, nor able to outparse elite ones, but that doesn't mean I don't play it. It's just one of my job among 5 others and not my best geared, nor most played job.

The reason why I didn't ans because i think you asked the question with the intention to find flaws and write off my opinion, and I think it's a cheap tactic in a discussion. That's why I didn't ans. I'm pretty sure the moment I ans your question you'll continue to attack with "but your BLU isn't elite so your opinion is moot" or "You're not career BLU so your opinion is moot" etc.

Anyways, the point is to argue the point, don't focus on the person behind the opinion. You don't even need to play BLU, just need to organize a BLU x2 setup pt once in your lifetime to understand how MG mechanics work, and how it boosts the defense of 2 DD AND give pt 1 free extra bubble for even more defense, while other DD jobs don't get any of that.

[Immortta]

Regarding buff jobs, people already went over this on AH over and over.

1)It's less work to nerf 1 job and more work to buff 5+ jobs. From the reward ratio perspective they accomplish the same result with less work. With current dev team resource it only makes more sense to accomplish the result using less resource.

No it really isn't that much work. WS adjustment for 2h/h2h jobs, boosts to certain buffs to 2h/h2h jobs among many other things. 1H jobs didn't start to become really powerful until the WS overhaul primarily.

2)If SE buff every other DD to surpass BLU's DPS, the player community will obtain DPS power that's much stronger than what we currently have, thus making the content easier....when majority of them are already very easy. It only hurt the game as a whole.

The game isn't going to be that easy if other jobs are up to par for DD. Look at BLM and the magic burst strat, it can't get much easier than that. SE plans to also add new content as well. You still can't steamroll the master trials (which are being done primarily with ranged strats FYI.)

4) You brought up Angon and stuns from other DD jobs, guess what, BLU can do BOTH with sudden lunge and Tenebral Crush, with recast so low that you can literally spam it.

This shows that you don't play BLU. BLU has a very very low success rate on landing these on anything that matters. You aren't going to fight T3+ in Reisenjima and be able to reliably stun them or land DEF down, and continual casts will lower DPS vs other DD and in most cases the benefit is moot considering you have other jobs capable of the same features that don't require a chance to land.

[Afania]

No it really isn't that much work. WS adjustment for 2h/h2h jobs, boosts to certain buffs to 2h/h2h jobs among many other things. 1H jobs didn't start to become really powerful until the WS overhaul primarily.

Nah, I'd rather SE work on contents instead. Do MG adjustments and get this BLU issues done with.

The game isn't going to be that easy if other jobs are up to par for DD.

I feel like I'm just repeating myself like a broken record about this discussion now.

You're essentially asking jobs like WAR to get 25%+ dmg boost and yes that'll make the game too easy.

This shows that you don't play BLU. BLU has a very very low success rate on landing these on anything that matters. You aren't going to fight T3+ in Reisenjima and be able to reliably stun them or land DEF down, and continual casts will lower DPS vs other DD and in most cases the benefit is moot considering you have other jobs capable of the same features that don't require a chance to land.

Idk if you're just trying to win this "BLU doesn't need nerf" argument or not anymore. First you're claiming everyone BLM magic burst everything T3+ and that makes the job broken because it's so easy, and everyone and their mother all BLM all things. THEN you proceed to argue that BLU stun is useless ON T3+ as if everyone all currently melee burn T3+ and don't do other contents.

Additionally you even play the "you just don't play BLU card" again and again.

Let me tell you a story though. Someone **cough** suggested BLU and sudden lunge makes Dawn II BC laughably easy, so I did. I spammed sudden lunge in that BC on BLU and farmed gears that I need. So that person promoted BLU stun powa at that time, then when the time comes BLU mains start to deny BLU can stun by claiming "but it doesn't land on T3+, and every other content doesn't count".

95% of people don't melee T3+, so your argument about BLU not landing stun in T3 is irrelevant since people shout for BLU x2 in lower contents.

And when people really do T3+ with melee they'd still shout for BLU x2 for MG anyways.

[Afania]

No it really isn't that much work. WS adjustment for 2h/h2h jobs, boosts to certain buffs to 2h/h2h jobs among many other things. 1H jobs didn't start to become really powerful until the WS overhaul primarily.

The game isn't going to be that easy if other jobs are up to par for DD. Look at BLM and the magic burst strat, it can't get much easier than that. SE plans to also add new content as well. You still can't steamroll the master trials (which are being done primarily with ranged strats FYI.)

This shows that you don't play BLU. BLU has a very very low success rate on landing these on anything that matters. You aren't going to fight T3+ in Reisenjima and be able to reliably stun them or land DEF down, and continual casts will lower DPS vs other DD and in most cases the benefit is moot considering you have other jobs capable of the same features that don't require a chance to land.

Anyways, this entire post pretty much just shows how anti BLU nerf people will basically do everything to win argument when it comes to job balance discussion just to prevent a nerf. I'm just going to lay it out now.

Right now the issue isn't BLU winning every T3+ content by spamming sudden lunge, outparse every DPS job in game while keeping up defense spells full time and takes half of dmg of every other jobs, and makes the game laughable easy.

Right now the issue is MG mechanics encourages people to make melee DD pt with 2 BLUs to keep haste full time, while getting all the defensive bonus from MG. So you get massive amount of people shout for BLU and only invite BLU, causing other DD not getting invite. And none of the anti BLU people ever address this core issue, instead they always_argue_about_something else.

So there's the sum up of eternal debate:

-Pro Nerf people: BLU is currently having access to too much utility for the amount of dps that it can deal. MG is using 1 precious GEO buff slots. Either nerf MG haste, defense stacking, or BLU DPS.

-Anti nerf people: Nooooooo! Other DPS, such as WAR DRK SAM are stronger than BLU, if you can't outparse BLU your WAR DRK SAM suck.

The fact with spreadsheet is that BLU isn't behind WAR in terms of DPS at all.

-Pro Nerf people: BLU is currently having access to too much utility for the amount of dps that it can deal. MG is using 1 precious GEO buff slots. Either nerf MG haste, defense stacking, or BLU DPS.

-Anti nerf people: Just use entrust haste.

Well, so anti nerf people are basically saying the best way to deal with losing 1 GEO bubble is to......waste 1 geo bubble on haste?

-Pro Nerf people: BLU is currently having access to too much utility for the amount of dps that it can deal. MG is using 1 precious GEO buff slots. Either nerf MG haste, defense stacking, or BLU DPS.

-Anti nerf people: Just buff 2h DPS

The fact is that buffing 2h DPS is the same thing as nerfing BLU DPS, people are okay with buffing 2h DPS and shorten content lifespan, but not ok with nerfing BLU DPS? I just don't get it.

-Pro Nerf people: BLU is currently having access to too much utility for the amount of dps that it can deal. MG is using 1 precious GEO buff slots. Either nerf MG haste, defense stacking, or BLU DPS.

-Anti nerf people: You must play with PUG right? PUG suck!! You can clear the content with WAR DRK SAM just fine, you don't NEED BLU to win if you play with better people.

Fact: I can clear the content with MNK too, does that mean MNK don't need adjustment? Job adjustment doesn't base on whether X job can clear the content or not. Also regardless of the skill/gear level you're still getting the bonus of what BLU brings to the table

-Pro Nerf people: BLU is currently having access to too much utility for the amount of dps that it can deal. MG is using 1 precious GEO buff slots. Either nerf MG haste, defense stacking, or BLU DPS.

-Anti Nerf people: GEO is OP, BST is OP, BLM is OP, COR is OP, SMN is OP....WHY DON'T YOU NERF THESE JOBS TOO.

Because as it stands now this thread and discussion is entirely about the issue of people shout for BLU only. If you want to discuss GEO, BST, BLM, COR, SMN job balance issue open another thread please. I don't understand the reason to talk about other jobs when the topic is about BLU

-Pro Nerf people: BLU is currently having access to too much utility for the amount of dps that it can deal. MG is using 1 precious GEO buff slots. Either nerf MG haste, defense stacking, or BLU DPS.

-Anti Nerf people: YOU JUST DON'T PLAY BLU RIGHT?

Well, some people that supports BLU nerf in every discussion definitely does

-Anti Nerf people: No you don't, you just don't play blu because I said so.

Ok, so we don't play BLU, only anti nerf people plays BLU. It doesn't change the fact that there's design balance issue though.

-Anti Nerf people: Just play other DD jobs, other job can do def down and stuns, SO AWESOME! Oh wait, you just said BLU can stun/def down too? I CAUGHT YOU DON'T PLAY BLU BECAUSE THOSE DOESN'T LAND ON HIGH END CONTENT.

Fun facts: Back then when delve1 was just out, some career BLU* pop on the forum and promoted BLU terror/req in ceizak. Back then when people were asking for dawn II advice, some career BLU* pop on the forum and promoted BLU sudden lunge in this BC. Those people loved BLU so much that in pre-BLU bandwagon era they do everything they could to promote the power and utility of their favorite job.

Now that people have noticed this job is getting a little bit unbalanced and there are voices to call for nerf, then same group of people are trying everything they could to downplay BLU's advantage just to support their anti nerf pov. They drastically over-exaggerate the DPS gap between WAR, SAM and DRk v.s BLU. Tried to come up with subpar solutions to haste issues, played the "your group suck" card against anyone prefer to bring BLU over WAR, SAM and DRK for safety reasons, then proceed to claim anyone supports MG adjustment doesn't play BLU. Then hand picked one very specific situation that majority don't do(T3+ with melee setup), and use it as an example to support their "BLU suck because additional effect doesn't land on these" opinion.


If people just keep hand picking niche situations that's harder to can't utilize BLU's strength, then proceed claim BLU isn't so great because of that, then it's not objective opinions. And that's pretty much every anti-nerf people's been doing, especially considering that not too long ago those same group of career BLUs promote BLU on the forum 24/7 before bandwagoning happened. Now that they suddenly completely forget everything great about BLU and just do all they can do to paint BLU as if it's a terrible job.

I feel like a broken record by just repeating my points over and over, only to see anti nerf BLU people replied with something not addressing my points....at all.

[Immortta]

Nah, I'd rather SE work on contents instead. Do MG adjustments and get this BLU issues done with.



I feel like I'm just repeating myself like a broken record about this discussion now.

You're essentially asking jobs like WAR to get 25%+ dmg boost and yes that'll make the game too easy.

You're implying that BLU has a 25%+ dmg boost over other jobs or that number is somehow necessary for jobs to do more dmg and be taken over BLU... Completely wrong. That isn't what is needed at all, a slight increase and other beneficial boosts like to certain JA, would suffice. You keep ignoring the fact BLU HAS ALWAYS HAD THESE SUPPORT/DEFENSIVE SPELLS, ALWAYS. The DPS between BLU and other DD HAS BEEN COMPARABLE SINCE ABYSSEA. You aren't making any sense at this point.

Idk if you're just trying to win this "BLU doesn't need nerf" argument or not anymore. First you're claiming everyone BLM magic burst everything T3+ and that makes the job broken because it's so easy, and everyone and their mother all BLM all things. THEN you proceed to argue that BLU stun is useless ON T3+ as if everyone all currently melee burn T3+ and don't do other contents.

One has all ranged damage with very low chance to fail, vs DD being subjected to status debuffs and all other things, do you not see how one is easier?

Additionally you even play the "you just don't play BLU card" again and again.

Let me tell you a story though. Someone **cough** suggested BLU and sudden lunge makes Dawn II BC laughably easy, so I did. I spammed sudden lunge in that BC on BLU and farmed gears that I need. So that person promoted BLU stun powa at that time, then when the time comes BLU mains start to deny BLU can stun by claiming "but it doesn't land on T3+, and every other content doesn't count".

So because someone tells you of a method to beat a BCNM, automatically it means that BLU is the only job capable of beating that BCNM? Confused on what you are even trying to get across here. You can easily beat this fight without stun, BST even solo's it on VD along with SCH and other jobs, WHAT IS YOUR POINT HERE? Yes, the stun barely lands on anything really relevant. Even in Ambuscade it doesn't land on most things or in high tiers of Escha or master trials, we're talking about the top of end-game when referencing nerfs and adjustments.

95% of people don't melee T3+, so your argument about BLU not landing stun in T3 is irrelevant since people shout for BLU x2 in lower contents.

And when people really do T3+ with melee they'd still shout for BLU x2 for MG anyways.

Stun doesn't land in a lot of other areas too (Avatars, Ambuscade VD, merit fights VD, high-tier Escha, master trials) and even if it DOES land, it is not a necessity for a win. With the AOE dmg nerf it is easily healed by a WHM (which btw has the stronghold on healing, nothing touches it) and any potential status debuffs can be blocked by a GEO. You don't need x2 BLU for MG when you can reset timers or take time between fights to readjust parties and reapply buffs.