BLU Balance

[Afania]

I didn't "spam" it on AH, I only ever reply people's comment. You sound like as if I run around create 10 threads on every forum then hijack every discussion and turn it into BLU nerf, which I didn't.

I only post in this discussion to add spreadsheet info that I get about BLU v.s WAR in terms of DPS. I heard people claiming WAR > BLU, DRK > BLU all these times with absolutely zero evidence outside of people's parse result in their friend circles. So I had the opportunity to do spreadsheet, found the above DPS hierarchy info incorrect with my result. And that's really all I did....until army of anti nerf people started playing "your opinion is moot and you dont play BLU" card.

[Immortta]

Anyways, this entire post pretty much just shows how anti BLU nerf people will basically do everything to win argument when it comes to job balance discussion just to prevent a nerf. I'm just going to lay it out now.

"Basically do everything to win arguement"

Which means what exactly? I've simply given my opinion and backed it up with facts, you just have this attitude that automatically makes you discredit any post I put because you are completely biased towards a nerf on BLU

Right now the issue isn't BLU winning every T3+ content by spamming sudden lunge, outparse every DPS job in game while keeping up defense spells full time and takes half of dmg of every other jobs, and makes the game laughable easy.

Is this sarcasm or what? Outparse every DPS job in the game? Are you confident in backing that up? I think that is completely false. Keeping up defensive spells full time is a DPS loss and unnecessary for many fights, again BLU has had these benefits since day 1. AOE dmg taken was nerfed for all jobs, not just BLU, and the game isn't exactly hard outside of high tier Escha and Master trials, which BLU doesn't make laughable because people rarely bring it to them.

Right now the issue is MG mechanics encourages people to make melee DD pt with 2 BLUs to keep haste full time, while getting all the defensive bonus from MG. So you get massive amount of people shout for BLU and only invite BLU, causing other DD not getting invite. And none of the anti BLU people ever address this core issue, instead they always_argue_about_something else.

You've been told this before, but you just don't listen. Stop using shout groups as the test for whether a job needs an adjustment. If that was the case you would be campaigning on these forums to nerf GEO ASAP because it completely overshadows BRD and other jobs. PUG are not the defining thing in adjusting a job... it's silly to even assume that as that lies in the hive mind of the PUG shouters. You can nerf MG and people would still bring BLU because its the flavor of the month job, something YOU keep ignoring. Most BLU DONT EVEN BOTHER with defensive spells in PUG fights as its unnecessary a lot of the time. Other jobs also have comparable benefits that people just seem to ignore, like yourself.

So there's the sum up of eternal debate:

-Pro Nerf people: BLU is currently having access to too much utility for the amount of dps that it can deal. MG is using 1 precious GEO buff slots. Either nerf MG haste, defense stacking, or BLU DPS.

"Precious GEO buff slot" LOL, so an entrust spell is "precious" according to you? Do you even realize most PUG GEO barely use the JA?

The fact with spreadsheet is that BLU isn't behind WAR in terms of DPS at all.

-Pro Nerf people: BLU is currently having access to too much utility for the amount of dps that it can deal. MG is using 1 precious GEO buff slots. Either nerf MG haste, defense stacking, or BLU DPS.

-Anti nerf people: Just use entrust haste.

Well, so anti nerf people are basically saying the best way to deal with losing 1 GEO bubble is to......waste 1 geo bubble on haste?

It's not a GEO bubble you lose, its entrust which is weak for most spells. You conveniently keep skipping over that.

-Pro Nerf people: BLU is currently having access to too much utility for the amount of dps that it can deal. MG is using 1 precious GEO buff slots. Either nerf MG haste, defense stacking, or BLU DPS.

-Anti nerf people: Just buff 2h DPS

The fact is that buffing 2h DPS is the same thing as nerfing BLU DPS, people are okay with buffing 2h DPS and shorten content lifespan, but not ok with nerfing BLU DPS? I just don't get it.

Escha content is already shortened, people who can win it already have 8+ aeonics. It would simply open it up to lesser geared/skilled players to get the weapons and have SE create new content going forward while people can still enjoy the older stuff. It has been their mantra for a while now to make older content easier (which I disagree with slightly) but you are acting like the mobs will be one shot if other DD get a slight boost lol.

If people just keep hand picking niche situations that's harder to can't utilize BLU's strength, then proceed claim BLU isn't so great because of that, then it's not objective opinions. And that's pretty much every anti-nerf people's been doing, especially considering that not too long ago those same group of career BLUs promote BLU on the forum 24/7 before bandwagoning happened. Now that they suddenly completely forget everything great about BLU and just do all they can do to paint BLU as if it's a terrible job.

Nobody is trying to paint BLU as a terrible job, its a great one. The fact that people like you are completely exaggerating the differences due to a hive mind bandwagon, is cause for career BLU to give you facts.

[Immortta]

I didn't "spam" it on AH, I only ever reply people's comment. You sound like as if I run around create 10 threads on every forum then hijack every discussion and turn it into BLU nerf, which I didn't.

I only post in this discussion to add spreadsheet info that I get about BLU v.s WAR in terms of DPS. I heard people claiming WAR > BLU, DRK > BLU all these times with absolutely zero evidence outside of people's parse result in their friend circles. So I had the opportunity to do spreadsheet, found the above DPS hierarchy info incorrect with my result. And that's really all I did....until army of anti nerf people started playing "your opinion is moot and you dont play BLU" card.

Spreadsheets are done in a vacuum, all these GREAT benefits you list for BLU like spells being casted conveniently vanish when you are doing your DPS spreadsheet against other jobs huh? I sincerely doubt your findings and I'd be willing to bet they are not an accurate representation of what actually goes on. Also consider SE has plans to further buff those jobs.

[Afania]

You keep ignoring the fact BLU HAS ALWAYS HAD THESE SUPPORT/DEFENSIVE SPELLS, ALWAYS. The DPS between BLU and other DD HAS BEEN COMPARABLE SINCE ABYSSEA.

No it isn't. I actually just found my DD hierarchy comparison that I've done in 2014 with spreadsheets. BLU at that time was roughly 90% of MNK's dmg, and MNK weren't top DPS at that time, SAM was.

By comparison BLU beats JA down WAR and deal 95% of DPS when warcry up.

You can argue that BLU deals "comparable" dmg to MNK in 2014 because 10% dmg gap is still pretty close, but the gap is just smaller these days. You make it sound like the gap between BLU and other DPS haven't change, but according to spreadsheet it did changed.

So because someone tells you of a method to beat a BCNM, automatically it means that BLU is the only job capable of beating that BCNM? Confused on what you are even trying to get across here. You can easily beat this fight without stun, BST even solo's it on VD along with SCH and other jobs, WHAT IS YOUR POINT HERE?

My point is career BLUs promote BLU whenever they try to sell the job then changed the stance completely to support anti-nerf pov.

Stun doesn't land in a lot of other areas too (Avatars, Ambuscade VD, merit fights VD, high-tier Escha, master trials) and even if it DOES land, it is not a necessity for a win.

Ok so a while ago you're promoting stuns from other jobs are awesome so we gonna invite none BLU DDs! Now you're saying it's not necessity for a win.

That's contradiction.

You don't need x2 BLU for MG when you can reset timers or take time between fights to readjust parties and reapply buffs.

If you give other DPS MG you still need Erratic Flutter to cap haste. So how are you gonna cap haste with 1 BLU 1 not BLU DD then?

Which means what exactly? I've simply given my opinion and backed it up with facts, you just have this attitude that automatically makes you discredit any post I put because you are completely biased towards a nerf on BLU

Voting for MG adjustment is my stance, what else do you expect lol. It's not "biased" just because I have certain stance toward something.

I discredited posts you put because you didn't address any of my point, which is "Currently there's an issue of people abuse BLUx2 setup".

If you can find a solution to SOLVE the above issue without changing the content difficulty, then I'll agree with your opinion.

But so far the only solution that you came up with is to boost other DDs, which I don't completely agree with.

You did provided some ideas to boost other DDs without touching DPS, such as giving them more utilities, so I'll give you credit for that. But unless other utilities are game changing enough to address the GEO bubble issue I'm not sure if that'll make other DD a more appealing option for melee spot.

Is this sarcasm or what? Outparse every DPS job in the game? Are you confident in backing that up? I think that is completely false. Keeping up defensive spells full time is a DPS loss and unnecessary for many fights, again BLU has had these benefits since day 1. AOE dmg taken was nerfed for all jobs, not just BLU, and the game isn't exactly hard outside of high tier Escha and Master trials, which BLU doesn't make laughable because people rarely bring it to them.

I think you misread my sentence. I said the issue IS NOT BLU winning parse. Basically agreeing your opinion about BLU's DD hierarchy.

I said the issue is "PEOPLE ABUSE BLU X2 SETUP".

You've been told this before, but you just don't listen. Stop using shout groups as the test for whether a job needs an adjustment. If that was the case you would be campaigning on these forums to nerf GEO ASAP because it completely overshadows BRD and other jobs. PUG are not the defining thing in adjusting a job.

I went over this GEO and BRD issue already, and basically I'm tired of repeating the same point over and over and over and over.

Take this issue somewhere else please, start a new thread or something. But basically I'm done with talking about my opinion about BRD and GEO balance in a BLU discussion, because someone* repeatedly tried to change the direction of the discussion.

Nobody is trying to paint BLU as a terrible job, its a great one. The fact that people like you are completely exaggerating the differences due to a hive mind bandwagon, is cause for career BLU to give you facts.

So you think I'm exaggerating the strength of BLU, while I think you downplayed the strength of BLU. Ok.

[Afania]

Spreadsheets are done in a vacuum, all these GREAT benefits you list for BLU like spells being casted conveniently vanish when you are doing your DPS spreadsheet against other jobs huh? I sincerely doubt your findings and I'd be willing to bet they are not an accurate representation of what actually goes on. Also consider SE has plans to further buff those jobs.

Back to my original point, they can choose not to cast them and maintain the DPS, other jobs don't have the choice. Again, repeating myself.

You've been told this before, but you just don't listen. Stop using shout groups as the test for whether a job needs an adjustment.
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All top end groups gets BLU benefit as well, it's not like benefits from MG suddenly disappear if your group is top end.

Other jobs also have comparable benefits that people just seem to ignore, like yourself.
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Exactly which job can self cap haste without bubbles and gain massive def boost? You tell me, I don't know. BRD buffing themselves probably.

[Immortta]

Back to my original point, they can choose not to cast them and maintain the DPS, other jobs don't have the choice. Again, repeating myself.

Actually other jobs do have that choice, they have options for defense but again it doesn't really matter these days when a tank can hold hate very well on ilevel content and AOE dmg taken was nerfed.

All top end groups gets BLU benefit as well, it's not like benefits from MG suddenly disappear if your group is top end.

We're talking about damage capabilities in end game fights, not simply the haste off MG which can be easily replaced given that there are more numbers are harder fights like high-tier Escha or outside buff sources like a mule BRD or trusts.

Exactly which job can self cap haste without bubbles and gain massive def boost? You tell me, I don't know. BRD buffing themselves probably.

All jobs can self cap haste with trusts or damn near close lol. Refer to my previous point about "massive def boost." Comparable benefits meaning angon, 9999 HP DRKs prior to fights, WAR offensive JAs, RUN DD builds, NIN shadows etc.

[Afania]

Actually other jobs do have that choice, they have options for defense but again it doesn't really matter these days when a tank can hold hate very well on ilevel content and AOE dmg taken was nerfed.

We're talking about damage capabilities in end game fights, not simply the haste off MG which can be easily replaced given that there are more numbers are harder fights like high-tier Escha or outside buff sources like a mule BRD or trusts.

All jobs can self cap haste with trusts or damn near close lol. Refer to my previous point about "massive def boost." Comparable benefits meaning angon, 9999 HP DRKs prior to fights, WAR offensive JAs, RUN DD builds, NIN shadows etc.

I can name tons of situations that doesn't favor a tank in DD setup, angon, 9999 HP DRKs, WAR warcry, Lionheart RUNs, THF larceny, and NIN defensive spells. But at that point I'd be just doing the same thing you did, which is nip picking a situation that favors my argument just to support my point. We'll just argue meaninglessly for another 10 pages.

I generally agree with you, those benefits are great. But you also gonna aware that those benefit aren't always relevant, for example angon being not so relevant with idris bolster frailty+ COR, or RUN needing massive attack buffs etc. Like what BLU has is sometimes relevant but you can still nip picking situations that BLU's benefit isn't as relevant just to support your argument.

If you look at the big picture as a whole though, I personally think BLU has more benefits in melee setup. And I still think 1 free bubble slot is pretty big one, considering how strong and versatile GEO buffs are.

There are situations that you can solve the haste issue with entrust and weakened the issue, but sometimes you just can't. In situations that you can't full time entrust 1 bubble slot become much more relevant than other benefits from other DDs.

I mean, I'm ok with BLU having other benefits like RUN, WAR, NIN, DRK, DRG or whatever, really. But 1 GEO buff slot is pretty huge, that's basically massive additional benefit that you can use freely for acc or defensive needs. And even if you start naming niche situations that the haste bubble benefit is lessened, such as JA reset for entrust, you'd never know when will SE release newer, harder content without options to do JA reset that you just need as many buff slots as possible to win comfortably.

I look at this design issue from a bigger picture, instead of picking niche situations when evaluating design issues. I'm not here to scream BLU needs a nerf because I have bandwagon mindset, I do so because I noticed design flaw when SE implemented MG, on a already very versatile and strong DPS job.

SE can buff other jobs massively, but unless other jobs are buffed to the point that they massively out DPS BLU, or unless SE completely redesign haste buffs layout, I see BLU x2 setup still gains 1 free entrusted GEO bubble full time, or 1 indi bubble when you can't reset JAs compare with other DD job candidates.

If SE leave this issue unaddressed, how are they going to move forward with future content if they ever have plans to?

[Diavolo]

I didn't even answer your question and you quickly jump into conclusion that "Afania doesn't play BLU", then proceed to basically write off ALL of my opinion...

I'm merely trying to get a better understanding of where you're coming from. Good to know you don't share the OP's opinion.

Why do you reserve a job you believe is overpowered for easy content, isn't that counterproductive?

[Fae]

#NerfBLU

You guys are looking mightily desperate clinging to red herrings, what if scenarios, and then your ultimate defense being, "join our bandwagon, everyone else is doing it". And if they say more, "well you don't play BLU, but you should, cuz then we all would!". I remember some of these same people not playing BST, THF, SAM or other jobs and wanting a nerf hmmm. But now that the game favors you, you pull the same cards as if forgetting you used them when the game was clearly not in your favor. If anything, playing BLU is a bias in itself, you don't elect a jury of your peers, you get people that aren't involved to weigh in. Perspective from the inside looking out is the worst kind if those same people have reasons to be biased and have their invested interests tied to the outcome which is clearly the case here beyond a doubt.

There was a study done on this kind of thing, two players are chosen at random to play monopoly but one player is given a pretty big advantage. The player that ends up winning and having that advantage when their study was behaved and later questioned why they won, they'll cite their intelligence, or skill, or how well they played the game and cite certain victories as their proof disregarding that they had a built in advantage and being blind to their own benefits or disregarding them as unimportant. You're willfully in denial and will do mental backflips and lean heavily on partial truths and logical fallacies and not actually address any of the things which strongly show blu is both bandwagoning and currently too strong, in too many ways, all at once. You know there's a problem when a bunch of people are literally telling you, jus gear BLU as their ultimate solution.

It's almost as if you guys don't care for job balance or job variety or the games health at all, as long as you can gather together in your borg-like blu cult. You'll hop to the defense of it here and everywhere else, and it does pop up everywhere because everyone sees this problem, you try o make it sound like only two people are calling for a nerf when every thread on other sites gets turned into a nerf BLU "discussion", though they aren't discussions it's basically everyone but people who hopped on the bandwagon saying we should nerf BLU then bandwagoners or long time blu players (though even some of them say we should nerf blu) sticking together like candy left in the sun too long to try to defend it, but they never make any points or have any solutions they only try to exhaust everyone else and try to sign more people up for their BLU bandwagon brigade. I actually feel sorry for people that played BLU just cuz it was a job they liked and stuck with it through the years having to deal with all the bandwagon nonsense, but as I said even some of them have said BLU needs a nerf. Most the bandwagoners do not want any job but BLU in their party, and if you've ever been on another DD in a BLU bandwagon party it's a very miserable experience. You will not get haste cap, I will say that first off. They will horde it over you that they have it, and the whm or geo will probably be too lazy to even haste I you. You will be reprimanded if you use any ws that doesn't self chain light and at the first opportunity, they will find another BLU so they can all have their light chains and extra buffs without another DD to slow them down. If a mob needs gravity, they want blu. If a mob needs stunned, they want BLU. If a mob needs killed, they want no tanks and instead want BLU. Nerf BLU already this ridiculousness has gone on way too long. As I said before, they were bandwagoning and a problem even BEFORE they got their new AoE spells and mighty guard and their extra set points, now it's just super ridiculous.

[Afania]

Why do you reserve a job you believe is overpowered for easy content, isn't that counterproductive?

I don't understand your question. Are you saying I pop on the forum claiming BLU is OP for easy content? Or people shout for BLU because it's OP for easy content? That wasn't the point that I've made in this entire 50 pages discussion on AH and OF. I don't recall I have ever use the term "OP" when it comes to BLU discussion at all.

Maybe you could go back and read the post that I sum up my thoughts about this BLU design mechanics, instead of confuse my point with someone else's every single post.

It's almost as if you guys don't care for job balance or job variety or the games health at all

This........I sincerely don't understand the reason why people questioned my background, jobs leveled, or my motivation, when trying to engage a discussion about design issues.

If people don't use the word BLU, just use a more generalized DD name, then make the follow statement:

DD A can do 5000 DPS, but DD A needs 1 GEO haste bubble, or entrust haste bubble in situations that you can reset JA everytime entrust is down. Therefore DD A can only get 1 GEO offense/defense buff, or 2 when you can reset JA.

DD B can do 5000 DPS, but DD B doesn't need any haste bubble. Therefore DD B always gets at least 2 GEO offense/defense buff, or 3 when you can reset JA.

If you invite 2x DD B, you can gain the access to 2 GEO offense/defense buff full time, if you invite 1 DD A and 1 DD B, you can will lose the access to 1 indi or 1 entrust bubble.

Regardless which DD it is it's mechanically a hole in this entire design, before even looking into MG defense benefits.

But whenever this design issue is being brought up, there's always someone saying "But you don't need those bubbles in content X", "We only use melee in easy content anyways!" and more importantly "Why does it matter to you"


Back then people talked about issues like amount of SoA ring you can get, MNK and SAM bandwagon, merit WS limitations, quality of life adjustments. None of those discussion ever sparked this many people fight against the adjustment, nor questioned people's motivation to ask for adjustment. And those issues has way, way less impact than losing 1 GEO bubble when you can't JA reset.

I personally just don't understand why so many people are against adjustments to MG mechanics. Even if it doesn't affect you today because you clear easy content in 2 min with other DD, and do T3+ with BLMs, it may still affect you one day when new content comes out.

Whether you play BLU or not, and regardless you bring melee to T3+ or not, if you guys only look at the mechanic instead of trying to convince yourself "the mechanic is good, I'm not affected by it" I think it just needs adjustment.