HP Scaling, Please Remove It

[OmnysValefor]

Since you brought it up, at what point does helping become carrying?

I have my own definition, but even that is vague: Carrying would be when a single (or very small minority) of the party is undergeared and underequipped for the content, forcing the rest of the party to do the entire job. Helping would be when there is a balance of veteran and inexperienced players attempting to fight a battle together.

I disagree. You're being carried when an entire group of people in your gear have no realistic chance of defeating the boss.

When I came back in November after a two year break, I was in a very awkward position at first. My -dt sets were mostly non-ilvl because ilvl gear didn't initially have a lot to offer tanks. In these sets, I was tanking as much as half a zone of Delve and 1-2 bossses at the same time, back when people were first killing delve bosses. They were good sets.

In November? I could barely solo (w/ trusts) 1v1 quest mobs in Reisenjima and I even had Tojil's 119 sword from years ago.

Sparks gear isn't well itemized so I didn't pick any of it up. I felt that I was better off in my old gear than poorly balanced 117 gear.

My friends wanted to play with me, and I'd be in XP parties or on bosses as a PLD, getting beat on while the Burtgang pimp PLD was on BLM. I was being carried.

So I leveled GEO even though I didn't think it would be amazing as it was. Our group didn't have one so I made it happen. I could do things on GEO, and the PLD could be PLD. GEO doesn't have to concern itself with magic accuracy initially and still contributes quite a bit.

I could have also leveled Corsair, dug out my WHM or SCH, possibly RDM. I chose GEO and I'm glad I did.

As for my initial stance on HP scaling. I have indeed given it more thought. And while I still see no reason for it's current implementation, in certain circumstances it would in fact be welcome.

Assuming all other fights were normal (without HP scaling), wouldn't it be cool for there to be one powerful boss who increased in power as more players fought it? And, since it was only a single fight, it would be acceptable for the drops from that boss to scale up with players as well. This would create a challenge: Bring as many people to the fight as possible and still be able to win.

Boom: Difficult content that encourages people to play together.

Furthermore, this would be quite similar to the current Ambuscade system. You can choose to solo a very easy fight for a lower reward, or you can bring a party on a higher difficulty for a larger reward.

That brings up my most important point with the problem: Choice.

First, when you say drops scale up, do you mean scale up in quantity or quality?

If you mean quantity, alright. If you mean quality, I disagree absolutely. I've played other games (WoW most famously) were larger raid versions of the same fight dropped higher-quality items (same item, linear upgrade. A +1, +2, +3 basically) and I despised it. Getting 25 people together was such a pain, I much preferred 10 man.

Second, at the part of your post I italicized:

Ambuscade is indeed a nice system in the respect that newbies can solo easier versions to pursue the same gear because this is gear they will eventually very much need and will help them in their conquest of escha greatly.

One more thing: You say players should not have to force difficulty on themselves. But they already do this. When you solo a Merit fight on D or VD, you are forcing unneeded difficulty. When you clear (normal non-HP scaled content) with an unusually low number of players, you are forcing unneeded difficulty. People do this because it makes them feel good that they were able to go above and beyond expectations. But when you know that the difficulty is automatically adjusted as people are added and removed, it looses the appeal. Yay, you cleared a tough boss with only three people, but oh wait, that same boss was actually weaker then it would have been with more people, less yay...

Forcing difficulty by using deliberately poor job selection (two thfs, why not) is not the same as a difficult fight. THFs don't, that I know of, solo VD HTBFs but BST, PUP and maybe PLD do (edit: and many other jobs could--smn, dnc, sch maybe).

With HP-scaling, I find that SE has set a bar (if you bring 3 people, the boss will be this hard, if you bring 7, this hard, 9 this hard and I like it. No, the 3 of us could probably not take down a difficult UNM designed for 18-man, or maybe even 6, but we met the challenge designed for 3.

The people that solo D and VD HTBFs do so for loot and no competition.

The people that solo Ambuscade by choice.. I don't really know why. They're making a congested system much much worse. I hope SE does increase the points acquired for going with a group.

My whole argument with people who complain content is easy enough or too easy but use the best gear in the game could easily downgrade their gear if they want a challenge.

lol. False challenges are not challenges.

For some reason, whenever you say 'you' in your posts I just can't help but feel you are referring to me personally. (I know this is probably not the case)

I'm generally using the generic 'you' rather than the literal.

It's time for a silly analogy.

Properly gearing a job is like climbing a mountain. Every so often SE comes in and establishes a higher base-camp that new players are dropped off at (Perle/Teal/Aurore in Abyssea, Sparks Gear, Ambuscade Gear--sort of, both limited by its limited availability and the fact that points do need to be earned. Ambuscade wins a point for being based on total points allowing a noob to temporarily use the NQ gear while pursuing the HQ gear).

Players can begin the climb, meet the challenge, and be proud of their accomplishment or some guy coming from the top, or a much higher resting-camp can drop a rope-ladder from his chopper and say "GET IN, I'LL TAKE YOU UP!" (he has to shout, helicopters are loud). If they choose to do this, they get to the top and say "That mountain was easy!".

After that, players make one of two moves: They either clamor for a new mountain because the last has nothing to challenge them (even though they didn't experience it) or they wait for another ride up. Neither is good.

Fitting the analogy well, the newbie who took the ride doesn't understand how to actually climb a mountain and often fails at the next mountain (breaking analogy--harder content) because they're inexperienced.

[Olor]

No one is asking for a helicopter ride up the mountain, people are asking for those who climbed it first to leave their ropes attached to the slopes, and maybe post some information about which route they took.

[OmnysValefor]

That is simply not the case. The ropes and information are available on wikis.

People are asking to be included in content they don't belong at.

[Secondplanet]

lol. False challenges are not challenges.

But scaling HP isn't making it a challenge, its just artificially inflating the difficulty. Just like most of the current content its all made with poorly thought out mechanics so the monster hits harder or has more health but SE hasn't made a new challenge yet. Last challenge in this game was things like Vagary with needing to kill things under certain condition or Voidwatch where you can proc by using set skills from multiple jobs.

[Olor]

That is simply not the case. The ropes and information are available on wikis.

People are asking to be included in content they don't belong at.

Who is asking for that? I'm not. I'm asking for HP penalties to be removed on older content so I can more easily take it on with imperfect groups. Not "groups who shouldn't be there because they don't try to gear" but "groups that aren't the perfect setup" or "groups with more THF than GEO" or "groups that include DRG and PUP" - I don't want to have to shout for 6 hours to find a GEO and a SCH that is bored enough to do delve when they don't need anything from it.

Others are asking for it to be removed on newer things because it creates a perverse disincentive to invite people - even people who are well geared. I can't speak to that personally, because that's not content I'm geared enough to do - but it sounds like these folks have experienced it and found it frustrating.

[Zekander]

Once again, I am sorry I seem to be unable to show you the point I am trying to make.

You, Omnys, have misconstrued my motivation for posting this topic. I am not being asked to be carried (I already told you I don't need to be). I am not asking for anyone else to be carried (I don't like doing that either). I posted this topic because I am on the verge of quitting this game because there is nothing left for me to do on my own. My friends have all quit and I am having difficulty finding another group to play with. I am not doing this in hopes of getting a group out of sympathy. I am doing it because I know I am not alone. I know there are many other players who have experienced this very same exclusion. And I know what they are going to do.

They are going to quit.

Regardless of how you may feel about the game, people are quitting. People are quitting because they are being excluded from groups who already have met the minimum number of players required to clear the hardest content in the game.

Yes there are things I (and others) could do to get back into the game. We could spend many hours, days, and months sifting through all the people you have already rejected, trying to get a group together that can compete.

But we all know that the vast majority of players don't have that kind of motivation and dedication. This is a game, people are going to put Game amount of effort into it. They are not going to put Career amount of effort into it. When a game stops being fun, and becomes a thankless job, people quit.

I made this thread because I saw a very simple thing that the developers could do in order to keep people playing. This is a relatively new mechanic, and they should be able to remove it easily. Will this fix everything in the game? No. But I believe that it will help. At this point anything that helps people keep playing, and more importantly enjoying, the game can only be a good thing.

[OmnysValefor]

But scaling HP isn't making it a challenge, its just artificially inflating the difficulty. Just like most of the current content its all made with poorly thought out mechanics so the monster hits harder or has more health but SE hasn't made a new challenge yet. Last challenge in this game was things like Vagary with needing to kill things under certain condition or Voidwatch where you can proc by using set skills from multiple jobs.

Okay--

Content without HP-scaling will not be balanced around 18 people. I think SE has realized that 18 man and 36 man content has gone the way of the dinosaur. It's too hard to get that many people.

So it's balanced around 6. If it's balanced around 6 and you can bring 10, 12, or 18, it's made easier, if for no other reason than you can bring backup, reserves, or more Death BLMs.

SCH1 & 2 skillchain, BLMs #1 and #2 cast Death, then SCH 1-2 Skillchain while BLMs #3 and #4 cast Death because #1 and #2 are waiting on cooldown/recovering MP.

See, in the present design, extra melee are a wasted slot and hinderance on the group.

Good setup: Tank that can hold hate, 2 melee, WHM, GEO, BLM

Better setup: Tank than can hold hate, land ws's and survive, 1 melee, WHM, GEO, BLM or SCH, BLM

Best Setup: Tank that can hold hate, WHM, GEO, SCH, SCH or BLM, BLM

In any setup on a boss where magic is effective, more than 2 melee is absolutely wasted, but there's more.

Because all NMs build a short resistance to magic (this "buff" lasts 5~ seconds, the magic burst window basically), having excessive BLMs, especially when some are weak, hurts the other damage output of nukes that follow. So the thing you end up with, like detlef said earlier in the thread, is more people on support, debuffing the boss or waiting in the flanks as backup/nuking rotations (Stratagems / Death BLMs / Ballads for the BLMs).

If a BLM was going to magic-burst nuke a magic-evasive NM and it was going to land for 60k then 40k but my GEO nuke hits first or in-between and is resisted to 5k, the BLM's second nuke is likely gimped further than my 5k damage. In that scenario, the best thing for me to do is not to nuke.

And VW's proc system was terribly designed. Don't get me started on that. Forcing diversity without addressing balance still creates a terrible experience. Who remembers are the BLUs and Bards running around with unleveled skill but they were your EV proc? Who remembers slowing damage while the only blu in the alliance reset spells or depending on the melee who couldn't hit Kirin, let alone Qilin.

[OmnysValefor]

Once again, I am sorry I seem to be unable to show you the point I am trying to make.

Honestly, no personal insult intended but I get your point: You want content wide open to everyone nearly disregarding the difficulty and I think that's an awful design. I think people should put be more willing to do more for themselves.

I realize I'm in the minority here on the official forums, but look at your first post where you called it a useless mechanic and how much support it got. That alone shows the large number of people that are looking for anything to pin the problem on rather than their own deficiency. The problem isn't that they can't equally contribute, the problem is that the HP is higher when they're added to the group! If only it wasn't higher, then the group that can kill the boss without them could kill the boss with them!

And sure it's a game, but so are Chess and Poker. You don't go to tournaments for these games and ask to play by Checkers or Go-Fish standards.

(Edited for tyos)

(^lol, Edited for typos)

[Urmom]

Honestly, no personal insult intended but I get your point: You want content wide open to everyone nearly disregarding the difficulty and I think that's an awful design. I think people should put be more willing to do more for themselves.

I realize I'm in the minority here on the official forums, but look at your first post where you called it a useless mechanic and how much support it got. That alone shows the large number of people that are looking for anything other to pin the problem on rather than their own deficiency. The problem isn't that they can equally contribute, the problem is that the HP is higher when they're added to the group! If only it wasn't higher, then the group that can kill the boss without them could kill the boss with them!

And sure it's a game, but so are Chess and Poker. You don't go to tournaments for these games and ask to play by Checkers or Go-Fish standards.

The difference is even if the extra person has the ability to contribute as much as anyone else there is an efficiency loss after a point so it becomes impossible to actually to add as much as everyone did before you were added even if you add as much as anyone else while in the group. As already brought up extra melees no matter how good will add less and less dmg. Similar with support and MBers. What they will add is some leeway in terms of surviving thru bad stuff happening. And then their is the whole not being on the perfect job etc. This wouldn't be a problem if adding more people didn't literally make the mob harder AND make it so you still have to kill in the same amount of time.

bringing a friend to play along with you in a Chess/poker tournament also doesn't also cause everyone to lose the tournament either...

[Fae]

Carrying is when you're doing most if not all the work, which can be considered help. The difference people make is if you're doing something for them constantly and they don't have any initiative to get good on their own they rely on you basically and want you to accelerate them to end game where they didn't do much to deserve it or give back in any meaningful way VS. they do most the stuff themselves but sometimes ask for help with harder mobs and also give back to the LS. The only degrees is

1) do they put in their own work on their own time, to get better and have a desire to get better under their own power, or they rely on you to make events and organize things for them? The first is acceptable the second isn't. Ex. Will only get capacity points if a campaign is up, someone else organizes the party, and the CP is fantastic and they don't have to do much. Soloing CP can help you understand your job in more ways, it gives you a metric to measure yourself and more reasons to better your gear: faster capacity points.
2) Do they give back to the LS as much as they take out, or put in MORE than they take out, or are they basically leeches and only show up when it benefits them to do so and always the ones asking for help? How helpful are they? Even if you're not geared there is a lot of ways to help a LS so there is really no excuses. The first two ways are acceptable, the last is not. Ex. People who only show up to events if it has clears or gears they need, and will never show up otherwise.

Some people tend to think they have less play time, so it's justified they should be able to leech and not give much in return. That isn't so. If you don't have the time to play after work and all else is done, play to the time you have. No one likes a person who looks for excuses to be unfair to others. Give back if you take, and if you have too limited time, accept you can't get all your in game goals done in any short amount of time. It's really that simple.

It's very easy for a LS leader or event organizer to tell which kind of person you are, for one thing they deal with it relatively constantly and for another they aren't stupid. Whatever you do, you start to get a reputation. The #1 way I've seen returning/new players get into endgame is from recommendations from veteran players. You aren't gonna get those recommendations trying to pressure and cajole your way into gear, you get it by being the real deal which you become by doing the work. Which should be fun, the game has a lot to experience and offer, a lot of great storylines and central characters, and a lot of unique battle systems and content. Enjoy the journey instead of focusing only on the end.