Job balancing?

[dmuller30]

That would be awesome if they did add our suggestions to a test server so that way we could try it and send our feedback on what we did and didn't like. Several jobs still need a face lift.

[VoiceMemo]

The test server is no more, even though the link to "play on test server" is there, it was suspended a few years ago and never reopened.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...server+closure

[VoiceMemo]

Right, a NQ GEO can do a lot but an Idris GEO can do more. But if they increase the potency of Malaise, that benefits both Dunna and Idris GEOs. I don’t see how increasing the strength of buffs is helping only NQ players.

It comes down to the difference between NQ and HQ brd. For instance look at GEO's Geo-Refresh, The difference between NQ bell and idris is 5mp/tic. When you compare NQ brd(+2 all songs and emp +1 legs) and HQ brd(+4 all songs and emp +1 legs) its only a +2 difference.

So as my previous post I said:

If it was only 1 type of song per person max ballad we could give is only 8mp/tic for ballad 3(Gjallarhorn +4, base 3, Emp legs +1). At the moment this is the ONLY spell that can exceed geo's buff ability, Ballad 1, 2, 3 with Gjallarhorn +4 and Emp legs +1, totals 21mp/tic, idris geo maxes out at I believe 16mp/tic. With bolster(1hr) goes to 32mp/tic, but brd can SV and go to 42mp/tic.

and

For instance Ballad 1+5+2+5+3+5=21 native now in your suggesting of combining all songs into 1 song with the power of the boosts added. Now Gjallar + legs adds 5 more for 26mp/tic. So who would go after Relic for only a 4mp/tic boost? What is the advantage then of a Relic brd?

Idris already grants a greater boost from a NQ geo to a HQ geo with the weapon compared to a NQ brd and a HQ brd(REM). This is also reflected with their buffing spells that are calculated by a percentage.

My point again is that if base songs get changed with the current STATIC nature of + all songs, that it just further just gives FREE Gjallarhorn power to all brds. To be fair Gjallarhorn power would have to increase, but to counter act GEO's from complaining that it's too easy to get it would need to be on mythic weapon, which is comparable in difficulty to attain as Idris.

A real world example would be NQ = person paid $9/hr without college degree, where HQ = person paid $20/hr who went to college. Now you just give raise to NQ to $18/hr just because that's what the other NQ(geos) are getting and HQ person gets only raised to $21/hr because they already made more than $18/hr . Is that fair to the HQ person? They put in all that work but yet because to equal other NQ(geos), NQ(brd) gets raise and HQ(brd) gets pittance.

Now IF brd +all songs was changed to be a PERCENTAGE boost rather than a STATIC boost then yes it would scale accordingly.

In this case real world, NQ would make $18/hr but then HQ would be boosted by percentage, not 200% like NQ but maybe 150% to $30/hr.

Carn already gives us a huge duration boost. Why should the buff be on the Mythic weapon? You want only RME BRDs to get invited to anything? What we need is a scenario where 3-song, non-relic BRDs can still get invited to things and that only happens if the job itself is addressed, not its legendary instruments. RME BRDs will still always be better than 3-song BRDs.

The boost would go on Mythic because if it was placed on Gjallarhorn, Geos or other jobs would complain that it is TOO easy to get vs how their Idris takes to get.

[OmnysValefor]

As a GEO, GEOs don't have room to be complaining about anything.

Except the awfully implemented off-targeting mechanism for bubbles.

[detlef]

It comes down to the difference between NQ and HQ brd. For instance look at GEO's Geo-Refresh, The difference between NQ bell and idris is 5mp/tic. When you compare NQ brd(+2 all songs and emp +1 legs) and HQ brd(+4 all songs and emp +1 legs) its only a +2 difference.

Okay, so let's get something straight. In your eyes, a HQ BRD has RME, Ghorn/Carnwenhan/Daurdabla. NQ BRD has regular instruments, Kali/Legato, and Terpander. Let’s assume that both are capped on song+ and song effect duration gear (Fili+1 body, Aoidos neck, no Marduk legs because Ballad, Brioso feet, don’t have my gear sets in front of me ATM). Using Ballad as an example like you did, HQ BRD is able to provide:

-obviously 33% more songs (4 versus 3);

-Due to Ghorn and Carn, the HQ BRD is able to provide songs that are 39% longer duration (233% versus 168%), 31% difference with Blurred Harp;

-And if you look at potency, HQ BRD’s buffs provide 36% more refresh (15 mp/tick versus 11) for double Ballads, 15% difference with Blurred Harp.

Correct my math if I'm missing something, but I have to ask you, why isn’t BRD being invited anymore? It probably isn’t because the boost provided by RME are too weak. It might be because the job as a whole needs improvement.

Edit: math was bad.

[VoiceMemo]

Okay, so let's get something straight. In your eyes, a HQ BRD has RME, Ghorn/Carnwenhan/Daurdabla. NQ BRD has regular instruments, Kali/Legato, and Terpander. Let’s assume that both are capped on song+ and song effect duration gear (Fili+1 body, Aoidos neck, no Marduk legs because Ballad, Brioso feet, don’t have my gear sets in front of me ATM). Using Ballad as an example like you did, HQ BRD is able to provide:

NQ brd = 3 song JSE harp and the all songs +2 Eminent flute or Forefront flute.
HQ brd = Carnwenhan, Gjallarhorn, Daurdabla

My example was comparison of NQ geo Dunna and Nepote Bell, geomancy +5, versus the idris geomancy +10. Compare this to Eminent flute +2 to Gjallarhorn +4. Because of the PERCENTAGE nature of geomancy spells idris geo sees much more boost than dunna geo, but the STATIC nature of brd the power isn't nearly as great.

their nq +5 on dunna is greater than the hq of gjallarhorn already. To be on a lvl field perhaps Eminent flute goes to +5 and Gjallarhorn to +10, but this is why I suggested that the buff be on Carnwenhan, else geo's would complain that brd's powerful instrument is so easy to get.

-obviously 33% more songs (4 versus 3);

4th song does not apply to this example as there are only 3 ballads, this is comparison of ballad power.

-Due to Ghorn and Carn, the HQ BRD is able to provide songs that are 39% longer duration (233% versus 168%), 31% difference with Blurred Harp;

Duration is long yes but this is about the power, and the power of songs comes from Gjallarhorn. Duration is a different story.

-And if you look at potency, HQ BRD’s buffs provide 36% more refresh (15 mp/tick versus 11) for double Ballads, 15% difference with Blurred Harp.

Yes duration will give more MP back for total time, but again this is about power of the buff not total MP recovered.

Correct my math if I'm missing something, but I have to ask you, why isn’t BRD being invited anymore? It probably isn’t because the boost provided by RME are too weak. It might be because the job as a whole needs improvement.

Edit: math was bad.

The main reason why brd isn't invited as much is because of the HP mechanics of alot of the fights. Because less people = less HP brd becomes a luxury to have. Also because of the time limits imposed by SE for these battles. Brd unless you SV is not about a sprint, by the nature of brd songs its about the marathon. Brd is helpful when a fight runs long as they are not bound by mp constraints and can provide the support needed for the longer battle, ie ballads.

The BEST reason for brd at the moment is Requiem 7. As a REM brd this is one of the longest dmging DOT spells at around 5 minutes unresisted. Very useful to keep mobs from regening in cases of wipe situation.

[Pixela]

Also it's completely stupid how broken Idris is, I really don't know what they were thinking.

[dmuller30]

Bahaha that weapon is sooooooo broken. It really puts GEO in the god mode level.

[machini]

As a part-time blu, BLU JP categories (+20 BM points especially) and bonuses feel like the job leveled up which is probably how JP are supposed to feel.

I'd rather them buff jobs that got lackluster JP categories.

Recognizing that BLU is probably the most powerful, most sought-after melee right now doesn't mean it's overpowered, it means other melee could use a buff, because none of us are wanted if Scholars and Black Mages are effective against the boss.

I don't think you understand. BLU job point gifts are so mindbogglingly overpowered compared to all other jobs that they need to be toned down significantly. Having two free levels of all your traits, combined with the ability to choose which traits to set is too powerful. Especially when you compare it to jobs like DNC, or PUP, where your job point gifts actually hurt you.

There is a reason that BLU is the most sought-after melee right now, and it's because it's broken. And they won't fix it because they don't want to admit that they made a mistake.

Let's look at some other Jobs' 100 and 1200 point gifts, and compare them to two free levels of whatever job traits you want to set, excluding TA and TH.

WAR gets 10% crit rate.
MNK gets 10 martial arts, which hurts MNK.
WHM gets Reraise IV and Full Cure. Every WHM I have spoken to says Full Cure is completely useless.
BLM gets Tier VI nukes and Death. Death consumes all your MP, and BLMs hate having MP.
RDM gets Tier V nukes, Refresh III, and Temper II. You know, for all that meleeing RDMs do these days, and do you honestly want me to believe people bring RDM along specifically to cast Refresh III? Wonderful use of a slot in the party.
THF's raises the cap on TH by two. Not gives +2 TH and breaks the soft cap, but gives you a super tiny chance to get to TH 14. It'd just take 10~20 minutes, or more, of wailing on something that a) won't be living that long, and b) will probably one-shot you if it so much as looks in your direction.
PLD gets Enlight II, which they desperately need because they have major ACC issues, and 20% more damage returned by reprisal, a spell with a 1 minute duration and 3 minute cast time. So unless a PLD can achieve -66% recast time, this gift is actually useless a significant portion of the time. Assuming a PLD will have Haste II or equivalent and capped gear haste, you're looking at ~-55% recast time, which still leaves this gift useless 1/4th of the time, assuming it lasts its full duration, in which case it's even worse, since Reprisal's damage reflection has a cap after which it wears off, and there goes your block rate bonus from it.
DRK gets Endark II, which is nice, I guess, and 20% more HP drained by Dread Spikes, which, again, if you're playing DRK on current, relevant content, and something so much as looks at you for more than a few seconds, you're likely dead. Dread Spikes has a Duration of 3 minute and a recast of 3 minutes, but, given the fact that it's going to absorb, at most, 88% of your max HP, and considering that most end game monsters can one shot you, you're looking at it protecting you from maybe 4 or 5 hits, or maybe 2 or 3 TP moves, tops. Which probably will make it wear off long before you can recast it.
BST gets Sic and Ready recast time reduction of 5s, reduction on charges of Ready by 5s, and pet TP Bonus+40. God, those sure are on par with two free levels of any job traits you want.
BRD gets a second tier of Threnody and 5% increased song duration. So you get 6 extra seconds of song length, and Threnody IIs. Those are both nearly completely useless, and, see above commentary on BST. Especially considering all the fancy new spells BLU has gotten lately, but that is a thing that applies to all casters other than BLU.
RNG gets 10% ranged attack delay reduction while under the effect of Velocity Shot, which as a 2 minute duration and a 5 minute recast time. So 60% of the time, Ranger's gift, that is considered of the same 'power' as BLU's 2 free job trait levels, is completely useless.
SAM gets, under Hasso, a 10% chance that Zanshin will activate even on a hit, and under Seigan, a 10% increase in the Zanshin activation rate.
NIN gets Utsusemi: San, which is 5 base images instead of 3/4, and 5% WSD. Utsusemi: San is subject to all the 'flaws' that Ni and Ichi have, such as it being useless against a lot of things that will one shot you.
DRG gets a buff to their incredibly fragile pet.
SMN gets 15 more attack, ranged attack, and defense for their pets, and 5 second reduction on blood pact delays. That 15 ATT, RATT, and DEF sure are on par with an entire free level of all your job traits.
COR gets 10% ranged attack delay reduction, which probably hurts COR for the same reason MNK, PUP, and DNC are hurt by their delay reductions.
PUP gets 4 extra points per element for attaching equipment to their automaton, and, let's be honest, that sounds a lot better than it actually is.
DNC gets 4 extra maximum finishing moves. That is nice, I will say, as a DNC, but all it really means is that I don't have to do a step after using 5 Finishing Moves, such as on Reverse Flourish or Climactic Flourish, or any of the other abilities that consume 5 finishing moves, which still remains the maximum that can be consumed at once. Being able to Step, wait 5 seconds, Step, wait 5 seconds, Step, Weapon Skill, Reverse Flourish, Climactic Flourish, and then Weapon Skill instead of having to Step, Step, and then doing a third step between Reverse Flourish and Climactic Flourish is nowhere near on par with BLU's gifts, especially considering the relatively long recasts of some DNC JAs which, unless spells, can't get -80% recast time. Like BLU can get. Also this is only really "great" if you're a mythic DNC, since then you can get 9 finishing moves in 3 steps, whereas other, non-Mythic, DNCs will require 5. But your job point gifts should not REQUIRE a mythic to be good.
SCH gets Tier II storms and Tier II helixes.
GEO gets Tier V nukes and Tier III -ra spells. Which is great, compared to 2 free levels of all job traits, right? Especially considering that these are you gifts, whereas BLU has gotten new, very powerful, spells like mad.
RUN gets 20% increased duration on enhancement spells received. You know. Those things that are going to get dispelled frequently.

[edited for politeness]

[detlef]

NQ brd = 3 song JSE harp and the all songs +2 Eminent flute or Forefront flute.
HQ brd = Carnwenhan, Gjallarhorn, Daurdabla

My example was comparison of NQ geo Dunna and Nepote Bell, geomancy +5, versus the idris geomancy +10. Compare this to Eminent flute +2 to Gjallarhorn +4. Because of the PERCENTAGE nature of geomancy spells idris geo sees much more boost than dunna geo, but the STATIC nature of brd the power isn't nearly as great.

their nq +5 on dunna is greater than the hq of gjallarhorn already. To be on a lvl field perhaps Eminent flute goes to +5 and Gjallarhorn to +10, but this is why I suggested that the buff be on Carnwenhan, else geo's would complain that brd's powerful instrument is so easy to get.

No GEO would have any right to complain so let’s not worry about that. One thing that you bring up that I glossed over because I was in a hurry was the idea of percentage based buffs which I completely agree with. Static buffs did not survive ilvl very well at all.

Also, we don’t have to go songs+5 or +10, the devs could instead adjust it so that song+1 means something different. The difference between song+4 and song+5 doesn’t even have to be consistent with the difference between song+2 and song+3.

4th song does not apply to this example as there are only 3 ballads, this is comparison of ballad power.

Yeah I couldn’t come up with a perfect example, obviously 4th song is always in play not just for Ballads and you’d almost never have any reason to do 4 of the same song. Even though we’re talking about only Ballads for some reason, I think we can agree that HQ BRDs will generally be providing 4 songs while NQ BRDs will be limited to 3.

Duration is long yes but this is about the power, and the power of songs comes from Gjallarhorn. Duration is a different story.

Yes duration will give more MP back for total time, but again this is about power of the buff not total MP recovered.

While potency is important, I think you’re glossing over duration way too much. When certain battle conditions are met, those Ballads will last 78 seconds longer which is in no way trivial. Those duration effects apply to debuffs too. Nitro Lullaby is a real weapon and one of the only unique things BRD brings to the table.

The main reason why brd isn't invited as much is because of the HP mechanics of alot of the fights. Because less people = less HP brd becomes a luxury to have. Also because of the time limits imposed by SE for these battles. Brd unless you SV is not about a sprint, by the nature of brd songs its about the marathon. Brd is helpful when a fight runs long as they are not bound by mp constraints and can provide the support needed for the longer battle, ie ballads.

BRD is definitely a luxury that you wouldn’t have in a normal HP-scaled event as you said. But again, it’s because BRD is weak. HQ BRD already separates itself from NQ BRD. No additional RME buffs are needed to widen the gap (or even maintain the gap, the gulf will always be huge).

The BEST reason for brd at the moment is Requiem 7. As a REM brd this is one of the longest dmging DOT spells at around 5 minutes unresisted. Very useful to keep mobs from regening in cases of wipe situation.

Well I actually think Scherzo and Nitro Lullaby are probably the best reasons to bring BRD but to each his own.

Also it's completely stupid how broken Idris is, I really don't know what they were thinking.

Yeah Idris is pretty broken, but look at all the unique debuffs that GEO gets: magic defense down, magic accuracy down, attack down, defense down, evasion down… And each of them is hugely potent even with Dunna. GEO can also nuke and stun. It’s kinda unfair. But even so, I wouldn’t bother calling for a nerf, I just want BRD to get significant buff. And it has to be significant to matter.