Job balancing?

[OmnysValefor]

Oh really? When were you doing these. My first egls (07,08?) brought a bst and halftime pup/blm to endgame and suffered for the damage of the gimp warrior and gimp monk pet jobs.

These were both as well geared as they could be (esp the bst) but they weren't ideal.

You can bring any job to anything you can do with 5 or 17.

[Obysuca]

halftime pup/blm

suffered for the damage of the gimp monk pet jobs.

Theres your problem right there >_> no reason for them to have been /blm

[Jin_Uzuki]

Yes, I'm sure if you look hard enough, in 14 years of FFXI you'll find out someone 6-men party Kirin during 75 era using only a party of PUP.

Doesn't mean people actually wanted and asked someone to bring their PUP to Sky and Sea. Unless you were the HNMLS leader friend or PUP was the only job you ever leveled or they were really pitying you or something.

"Every job was viable ever" is flat out revisionist history.

No one wanted BST for a long time. BLM suffered once people discovered you could just TP burn everything. DRG was lol-drg for a while. RDM supplanted WHM for a long time. SMN always struggled.

And let not get me started how hard was reaching 75 for certain jobs (I'm sure everyone who leveled BLM during Toau era knows the joy of Colibri and Imps party)

[dmuller30]

I think this is the misconception.

Noone brought pup or bst to anything serious. TH-ief was brought for one reason and drg was usually brought for one.

As for support, endgame revolved around support, but SMN, just like the jobs above was worse than other options, especially when sch came along.

Ok I agree with you on BST SMN and THF. But do you see how small that list is compared to the one we have now?

[Secondplanet]

As for support, endgame revolved around support, but SMN, just like the jobs above was worse than other options, especially when sch came along.

Insert south parks "They took ur jerbs"

But in all seriousness when i first got smn to 75 long ago and dynamis gear was still pretty much the best gear you could get i got into a dyna/endgame LS that was just starting and was allowed to bring my smn in dyna until i got a "real" job sorted. But after 2-3 runs i was quickly shuffled to the lead party as i used my avatars to cycle buffs on the party (stone skin, haste, blink) and while other parties might wipe or have a member or 3 die the party i was in never suffered any deaths.
I do miss being able to play like that and when they finally give smn rage/ward i was able to fight along them also. But yeah when sch came out they took away what was special for us like how geo took away brds spot in parties. Hopefully the announcement for smn about our heal wards will just be the beginning and all our wards get an overhaul to take our spot back as the party buffer again since sch now has taken skill chaining/magic bursting away from SAM and BLM's.

[Ulth]

I think this is the misconception.

Noone brought pup or bst to anything serious. TH-ief was brought for one reason and drg was usually brought for one.

As for support, endgame revolved around support, but SMN, just like the jobs above was worse than other options, especially when sch came along.

That one reason isn't even a reason to bring thf anymore. Not only does hardly any end game content actually drop things, but literally every job can get TH 4 when TH 3 is the last one that does a damn thing. Which is why it's so infuriating that our special gifts were TH 13 and 14. They know TH stopped mattering 10 levels ago but here are 2 new tiers that you can never get to, and that don't do a thing. I would have been happier if they were just left blank.

People aren't even using thf for farming anymore. All I ever see doing salvage are blus. Hate control is a non issue, so thf pretty much brings nothing special to the table. And don't get me wrong, I hated just getting invited to events for TH, but it was better than nothing.

[Kensagaku]

That one reason isn't even a reason to bring thf anymore. Not only does hardly any end game content actually drop things, but literally every job can get TH 4 when TH 3 is the last one that does a damn thing. Which is why it's so infuriating that our special gifts were TH 13 and 14. They know TH stopped mattering 10 levels ago but here are 2 new tiers that you can never get to, and that don't do a thing. I would have been happier if they were just left blank.

People aren't even using thf for farming anymore. All I ever see doing salvage are blus. Hate control is a non issue, so thf pretty much brings nothing special to the table. And don't get me wrong, I hated just getting invited to events for TH, but it was better than nothing.

Honestly, I'd say it's even worse now, simply because endgame content is guaranteed to drop at least one item. Because of this, TH isn't necessary except for the rare chance of a second item. Combined with randomly getting equipment in your spoils list (more so during the campaign but possible outside), THF really serves no purpose except as a placebo these days. It's not that a THF can't be a good DD, but compared to the amount of babysitting needed for any melee character, it's just not worthwhile.

As Omnys says, the first things we need to consider are:

*Mob evasion or player accuracy; right now, dual-wielders have an advantage in getting more accuracy, since they have a second weapon to stack accuracy AND they are on light armor most of the time, which is also loaded down with it. Note I'm speaking of native dual-wielders, so no throwing BST at me on this. That's its own kettle of fish. Maybe offer 2h a better amount of accuracy from things like DEX or skill, enough to get them up to a more modest level. And of course, tone back mob evasion.

*The potency and range of debuffs; this can actually go both ways, decreasing or increasing. Why increasing? If mages are at risk of debuffs (such as from Strophadia's moves, which push them to the very edge of their casting range and often catches them), then it forces setups to go with a bit more support and become adjusted to dealing with the need to react to these debuffs. By doing so, it puts melee and mages on a more even playing field when it comes to debuffs and, though it requires a bit more babysitting for the whole party, makes it more viable for melee to come along. These days, it's not that healers aren't viably able to babysit melee, it's that it's simply inefficient to do so as opposed to focusing on the tank while mages nuke from a distance. If mages are at the same risk as melee, then strategies are forced to shift and adjust to accommodate proper support, enabling setups where there is more opportunity for melee to join in.

*Reduction of AoE Frequency or Effect; AoEs aren't bad, and they are meant to provide a threat to prevent a simple tank-and-spank setup where only the PLD/RUN/PUP Auto takes hits while everything wails on the mob free of risk. When used correctly, they are a concern, but not a game-ender. Most days, EVERYTHING is an AoE. Everything wipes shadows, everything hits for high damage combined with multiple status ailments, etc. Even many NMs these days have AoE basic attacks. When we get to this point, we're getting out of hand, and it makes it completely non-viable to use anything that's not at a range. So my proposal would be one that's been mentioned previously: Tune down the damage of those hit by AoEs that aren't the current hate target. Do something like a 30% reduction at most, so that AoEs still offer potent damage potential, but at the same time aren't a party one-shot. Perhaps even lower for casual auto-attack AoEs, because the mob shouldn't be knocking off most of our HP every few swings. Additionally, perhaps add a decrease in magic accuracy for debuff TP moves (not spells) that affect targets other than the current tank; while this won't guarantee a 100% avoidance, it makes it far easier if we're not riddled with 5+ debuffs every few seconds. This will again offer some viability for melee.

Amnesia (or: ugh, I can't do anythinggggg); Amnesia, as stated, is one of the worst threats in the game, comparable to a mute effect on the mages. But the problem is that mute is nearly nonexistent and non-viable because it locks out your healers instead of just your nukers, leading to a complete party catastrophe, while amnesia is so commonplace that it's easy to see why most melee are hanging up their weapons. If you're constantly stuck in auto-attack, unable to use your JA or WS, you're literally just sitting there swinging and waiting with minimal contribution. Just like Silence as Silena, I think it's time for Amnesia to have its own spell. If it balances it a bit more, make it something like Cursna, where it's not a 100%, but do make it something of a higher proc rate than non-gear Cursna. That's just terrible. And do the same with Silena/Echo Drops for Mute so that such an ailment becomes viable too, give it a chance to remove, but not a 100% due to its potency. This will create a reasonable risk that at the same time can be dealt with with proper preparation.

Edit: Somehow I missed my most important note in all of that.

*Mob HP Scaling; I think this needs to be tuned down if a lot of these things ever get implemented. If we need support to back our melee, then we need to not be punished for it. Our LS recently did Maju with an alliance of 16, and boy were we sad; while we had no issues surviving with a mage setup, between the cumulative magic resistance from too many people nuking together, the fact that some of them weren't making up for the extra HP their presence gave, and the actual scaling itself, we never got it below 40% or so. We've actually had discussions about going in smaller groups and then cycling in people here and there to get them their clears as opposed to doing an event as a linkshell. If it gets to the point that you have to exclude to get a minimal number of people, it's a good sign that HP scaling has gone too far.

[OmnysValefor]

[...]

everything wipes shadows

Yeah, it used to be that /nin was generally the tradeoff people made when personal survivability was a factor. Nin offers nothing to most jobs but survivability (except bst and war, which gain dual wield).

everything hits for high damage combined with multiple status ailments, etc. Even many NMs these days have AoE basic attacks.

Yeah, there's a lot of bosses (some of them very trival bosses) where I don't want the THF behind me even to TA. He eats an auto-attack cleave and he's dead or near it.

Amnesia (or: ugh, I can't do anythinggggg); Amnesia, as stated, is one of the worst threats in the game, comparable to a mute effect on the mages. But the problem is that mute is nearly nonexistent and non-viable because it locks out your healers instead of just your nukers, leading to a complete party catastrophe, while amnesia is so commonplace that it's easy to see why most melee are hanging up their weapons. If you're constantly stuck in auto-attack, unable to use your JA or WS, you're literally just sitting there swinging and waiting with minimal contribution.

At that point, your "contribution" is worse than the cost. You're feeding the boss TP, you're costing the healer MP. You're creating more enmity for the healer which can be a factor in prolonged fights.

The thing is, I can think of a few Amnesia-level debuffs that could exist (think nyzul lockout-floors), but I don't want to see mages going through the same crap. Hey, once in a while it's a fine mechanic but it's used too much. Way too much.

Just like Silence as Silena, I think it's time for Amnesia to have its own spell. If it balances it a bit more, make it something like Cursna, where it's not a 100%, but do make it something of a higher proc rate than non-gear Cursna.

I really don't want to see "Amnesna" behave like cursna, but if it did, I'd like it to provide protection for a duration based on healing magic skill. "JoeMage casts Amnesna on Kensagaku. Kensagaku is immune to Amnesia for 30s.".

If it gets to the point that you have to exclude to get a minimal number of people, it's a good sign that HP scaling has gone too far.

I've said before that I think HP scaling stops people from being carried, so I want it to stick around. This is another case where the problem is in the game mechanics, as you point out in your untruncated post:

More than the people necessary to create a skillchain, scholars included, are wasted slots, but here's something that people don't usually know: NMs gain a short buff to reduce magic damage taken after being nuked. While cumulative, the buff wears quickly. This means that while the gains from additional nukers is not as punitive as additional melee, it still exists (source). It's also interesting to read threads from that era, rather than relying on people's memory.

Perhaps addressing some of the problems with content and combat design will fix this.

I'm going to shamelessly plug a post I made, but I believe melee need a way to ws without interfering with or contributing to skillchains.

Until something is done about this, too many melee is just a really big problem.

[dmuller30]

I don't think survivablility will be fixed, it seems like SE has more important things going on like upgrading elemental siphon don't even get me started on that one lol. Think that was the last straw for me think I will be retiring SMN. I honestly think although someone said on here earlier it would be a good idea to up resistance on melee jobs against status ailments maybe an implemented trait or give them more resistance on gear. I mean just playing the game one time through on a job would let them know what the problems are, and if they are already then they should be well aware of what updates are needed, but because none of the major problems with balancing have been addressed it seems like none of the devs/programmers play them game at all and just provide us with random un-needed updates.

[Dale]

Until something is done about this, too many melee is just a really big problem.

I agree with you that having a party filled with melee is not ideal.

But that is probably as intended - as there has to be some incentive to create a balanced party else support jobs would be left out of the mix.