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  1. #11
    Player cengeal's Avatar
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    Jul 2011
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    90
    Character
    Prometus
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulth View Post
    Lets compare a thf using a max augment Taming Sari with a Sandung offhand, (probably the best two daggers for accuracy) to a drk using Cronus with a Flanged Grip. 20 accuracy and 22 dex on the taming sari gives it an accuracy bonus of 37 plus the 50 from the augments on Sandung gives the thf 87 accuracy from their main and sub slot. Cronus has an accuracy of 15 with augmented accuracy of 70 add in the 10 accuracy from the grip and that's a total of 95. 95 is greater than 87.
    There are a few problems with this. While the scythe does indeed have a lot of accuracy on it, it doesn't change the fact that scythe WS's in general are very lackluster, whereas dagger has Rudra's Storm. +70 to the crappiest weapon in the game doesn't mean much. Secondly, most DRK's would rather use a GS, weapons that don't have that kind of accuracy boost available. You could argue the real problem is that grips in general just suck compared to wielding a second weapon. I think the most amount of accuracy on a grip is like what, 10? That's pathetic. Finally, 2H jobs have to sacrifice a lot more than dual wield jobs when swapping to accuracy gear. They often lose their DA, TA, critical hit, and most importantly, their X-hit setups. I realize dual wielders also suffer from this, but it affects the 2handers on a greater scale.

    Comparing the best versus the best is an ineffective way to measure. While it's easier to get a Cronus with acc+70 than a capped tami sari, it also means less because DRK has lower natural accuracy than thief,and especially dancer, and don't even get me started on BLU. Also keep in mind, not everybody has access to the best equipment, which is a lot of what this thread is about. And like previously stated, scythe WS's are very unimpressive compared to sword and dagger. There's just no place for a scythe wielding DRK of moderate equipment in these groups. Aside from SAM, 2H jobs are rarely a welcome sight in high-end content.
    (0)

  2. #12
    Player Ulth's Avatar
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    Dec 2013
    Posts
    578
    Character
    Andrewviii
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by cengeal View Post
    There are a few problems with this. While the scythe does indeed have a lot of accuracy on it, it doesn't change the fact that scythe WS's in general are very lackluster, whereas dagger has Rudra's Storm. +70 to the crappiest weapon in the game doesn't mean much. Secondly, most DRK's would rather use a GS, weapons that don't have that kind of accuracy boost available. You could argue the real problem is that grips in general just suck compared to wielding a second weapon. I think the most amount of accuracy on a grip is like what, 10? That's pathetic. Finally, 2H jobs have to sacrifice a lot more than dual wield jobs when swapping to accuracy gear. They often lose their DA, TA, critical hit, and most importantly, their X-hit setups. I realize dual wielders also suffer from this, but it affects the 2handers on a greater scale.

    Comparing the best versus the best is an ineffective way to measure. While it's easier to get a Cronus with acc+70 than a capped tami sari, it also means less because DRK has lower natural accuracy than thief,and especially dancer, and don't even get me started on BLU. Also keep in mind, not everybody has access to the best equipment, which is a lot of what this thread is about. And like previously stated, scythe WS's are very unimpressive compared to sword and dagger. There's just no place for a scythe wielding DRK of moderate equipment in these groups. Aside from SAM, 2H jobs are rarely a welcome sight in high-end content.
    Glad to see you are living in a pre rudra's nerf world. Wish I could go back there. Anyway there is a reason the ftp or number of hits on a dagger weaponskill is higher than say a scythe. So if you were comparing them based solely on that it would look like daggers weaponskills are much better. Only problem is they are done with daggers the weapons with the lowest base damage as opposed to a scythe the weapons with the highest base damage.

    There are also disadvantages to dual wielding that you are over looking. One of the big ones is it lowers tp gain by lowering the delay of the weapons. Two hands on the other hand just get straight up job ability haste with their 2 hand weapons. That's really something that would mess up you X hit if you had to lower your weapon's delay rather then getting job haste. Then there is also the recent update where they changed the attack/defense cap for one hand jobs to 3.25 while 2 hand jobs got put at 3.75.

    That's also not the best vs the best. That would be comparing RMEs, but that is a whole other can of worms. As for drk have naturally lower accuracy than thf, idk what's the difference between the dex of a 99 thf and drk, probably not a whole lot in the grand scheme of ilvl. Also if your accuracy is so lower perhaps there is some sort of spell you could cast. Maybe one that only drk has that would somehow get you more accuracy.

    Should be worth noting that Cronus not only gets +70 accuracy from the augments, but also 10 base damage, and 10% WSD.
    (0)

  3. #13
    Player cengeal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    90
    Character
    Prometus
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulth View Post
    Glad to see you are living in a pre rudra's nerf world. Wish I could go back there. Anyway there is a reason the ftp or number of hits on a dagger weaponskill is higher than say a scythe. So if you were comparing them based solely on that it would look like daggers weaponskills are much better. Only problem is they are done with daggers the weapons with the lowest base damage as opposed to a scythe the weapons with the highest base damage.

    There are also disadvantages to dual wielding that you are over looking. One of the big ones is it lowers tp gain by lowering the delay of the weapons. Two hands on the other hand just get straight up job ability haste with their 2 hand weapons. That's really something that would mess up you X hit if you had to lower your weapon's delay rather then getting job haste. Then there is also the recent update where they changed the attack/defense cap for one hand jobs to 3.25 while 2 hand jobs got put at 3.75.

    That's also not the best vs the best. That would be comparing RMEs, but that is a whole other can of worms. As for drk have naturally lower accuracy than thf, idk what's the difference between the dex of a 99 thf and drk, probably not a whole lot in the grand scheme of ilvl. Also if your accuracy is so lower perhaps there is some sort of spell you could cast. Maybe one that only drk has that would somehow get you more accuracy.

    Should be worth noting that Cronus not only gets +70 accuracy from the augments, but also 10 base damage, and 10% WSD.
    I'm not sure if you've ever played DRK, but from your statement it appears no. Rudra's Storm is by far a better WS than any Scythe WS. Even though Rudra's did get nerfed, it is still a very good WS. It's not that Rudra's post nerf is a little better, it's that everything is better.

    The disadvantages of dual wielding are nothing compared to the benefits. Getting to use a second weapon with more accuracy, strength, dexterity, critical hit rate, triple attack, you get the point. The best grips are garbage compared to getting to wield a second weapon. Like I said, maybe it wouldn't be that much of a problem if grips were just better in general.

    Other can of worms concerning RME's, as you said. DRK gets the least amount of accuracy from JP gifts for melee jobs (as far as I can tell), even though it needs it more than any other job. As a DRK you can -try- to cast absorb spells, but that isn't always successful. Also, the more spells they cast, the less they attack. The augments on Cronus are amazing, i will admit that. But amazing stats on a scythe don't mean much. 2H WS's in general are weak compared to even a post Rudra's nerf, CDC, Savage Blade, etc. Common sense says a Great Axe will do more damage to a large enemy like a Hydra than two dinky daggers. Unfortunately SE doesn't seem to agree with it.
    (0)

  4. #14
    Player Ulth's Avatar
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    Dec 2013
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    578
    Character
    Andrewviii
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by cengeal View Post
    I'm not sure if you've ever played DRK, but from your statement it appears no. Rudra's Storm is by far a better WS than any Scythe WS. Even though Rudra's did get nerfed, it is still a very good WS. It's not that Rudra's post nerf is a little better, it's that everything is better.

    The disadvantages of dual wielding are nothing compared to the benefits. Getting to use a second weapon with more accuracy, strength, dexterity, critical hit rate, triple attack, you get the point. The best grips are garbage compared to getting to wield a second weapon. Like I said, maybe it wouldn't be that much of a problem if grips were just better in general.

    Other can of worms concerning RME's, as you said. DRK gets the least amount of accuracy from JP gifts for melee jobs (as far as I can tell), even though it needs it more than any other job. As a DRK you can -try- to cast absorb spells, but that isn't always successful. Also, the more spells they cast, the less they attack. The augments on Cronus are amazing, i will admit that. But amazing stats on a scythe don't mean much. 2H WS's in general are weak compared to even a post Rudra's nerf, CDC, Savage Blade, etc. Common sense says a Great Axe will do more damage to a large enemy like a Hydra than two dinky daggers. Unfortunately SE doesn't seem to agree with it.
    Somehow I doubt you've every really played drk either. Can you imagine how bad a blu would be if they didn't have sets for fast cast, magic attack, and magic accuracy. I can, they tend to be bad blus. If your absorb spells aren't landing you need more magic accuracy genius. Lucky you drk gets more magic accuracy than thf from gifts, but don't worry I would cry over that. And you are right drk gets the least amount of accuracy however they get the most amount of attack. It's almost like that is a particular quality that drk is associated with. War on the other hand gets more critical hit damage than thf even though thf is the job with the highest tier of critical attack bonus. Also don't try and say that attack isn't important. If you are fighting something you can't cap accuracy on I highly doubt you have 3.75 times more attack than they have defense.

    Rudra's is garbage. The only time to use it is when you are stacking it with SA/TA/CF, or if you really need to close darkness. Best unstacked dagger skills are evisceration for thfs, Mandalic stab for mythic thfs, Mordant Rime for mythic brds, and Pyrrhic Kleos for dnc mythic or otherwise. Mandau and Mercy Stroke are a joke even at 119 III. CDC and savage blade do seem very powerful but really they are just very powerful in the hands of blu, people seem to forget that they are also used by pld.

    Anyway it's funny you would end it on that hydra example, because that really just sums up your position. You don't want to be balanced with one hand weapons. You want two hand weapons to be better than them. You want all of those job's benefits and none of their draw backs. Why? because you can't be bothered to even try to be good at drk. When was the last time you opened a spreadsheet on drk huh?

    P.S. In the event you were fighting a hydra, while a great axe would be useful at first they mostly cause large superficial wounds. Most killing blows tend to be delivered with longer piercing weapons like daggers. Which fits as thf tend to be the best anchors on skillchains.

    P.P.S. And if we are really being realistic scythes aren't even weapons they are farming equipment.
    (1)
    Last edited by Ulth; 02-18-2016 at 06:19 AM.

  5. #15
    Player dasva's Avatar
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    Jul 2012
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    1,542
    Character
    Dasva
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    SAM Lv 99
    Wut? Savage blade is great on fencer war.
    (0)

  6. #16
    Player Ulth's Avatar
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    Dec 2013
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    578
    Character
    Andrewviii
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    Wut? Savage blade is great on fencer war.
    Right you are. Savage blade can be used effectively by pld, war, and rdm yet I never hear people complain about those jobs doing too much damage
    (0)

  7. #17
    Player cengeal's Avatar
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    Jul 2011
    Posts
    90
    Character
    Prometus
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulth View Post
    Somehow I doubt you've every really played drk either. Can you imagine how bad a blu would be if they didn't have sets for fast cast, magic attack, and magic accuracy. I can, they tend to be bad blus. If your absorb spells aren't landing you need more magic accuracy genius. Lucky you drk gets more magic accuracy than thf from gifts, but don't worry I would cry over that. And you are right drk gets the least amount of accuracy however they get the most amount of attack. It's almost like that is a particular quality that drk is associated with. War on the other hand gets more critical hit damage than thf even though thf is the job with the highest tier of critical attack bonus. Also don't try and say that attack isn't important. If you are fighting something you can't cap accuracy on I highly doubt you have 3.75 times more attack than they have defense.

    Rudra's is garbage. The only time to use it is when you are stacking it with SA/TA/CF, or if you really need to close darkness. Best unstacked dagger skills are evisceration for thfs, Mandalic stab for mythic thfs, Mordant Rime for mythic brds, and Pyrrhic Kleos for dnc mythic or otherwise. Mandau and Mercy Stroke are a joke even at 119 III. CDC and savage blade do seem very powerful but really they are just very powerful in the hands of blu, people seem to forget that they are also used by pld.

    Anyway it's funny you would end it on that hydra example, because that really just sums up your position. You don't want to be balanced with one hand weapons. You want two hand weapons to be better than them. You want all of those job's benefits and none of their draw backs. Why? because you can't be bothered to even try to be good at drk. When was the last time you opened a spreadsheet on drk huh?

    P.S. In the event you were fighting a hydra, while a great axe would be useful at first they mostly cause large superficial wounds. Most killing blows tend to be delivered with longer piercing weapons like daggers. Which fits as thf tend to be the best anchors on skillchains.

    P.P.S. And if we are really being realistic scythes aren't even weapons they are farming equipment.
    Well, Congratulations, you somehow managed to turn this into a personal feud. This is the problem with these forums: No matter what you try to do, there's always a cynical naysayer trying to destroy the thread with superficial arguments. For some reason, you don't seem to think this is a problem. And yes, I do play DRK. I do not claim to be great at it, but it's decently geared, and I have a good amount of magic accuracy to land absorb/drain spells, genius. There are certain monsters, like bats or undead, that you cannot reliably land absorb spells on. Therefore, those spells cannot be relied on 100% of the time. And I never said attack wasn't important, but accuracy is more important, and only a complete fool would argue that. So what if you can do a 10k Torcleaver 50% of the time? Not only are you missing, but the SC failed, as did the MB's. Therefore, the party fails because your accuracy as a DRK cannot keep up. Now if 2 THF's SC'd with Rudra's for crappy damage, they at least landed the SC and opened up MB opportunities.

    If you think Rudra's is garbage, try any scythe WS. Claiming Rudra's to be garbage doesn't help your argument that 2H weapons don't need to be rehauled. And a WAR can do some very high damage with savage blade. As can RUN. As can any job that can use it. Because it's a powerful WS. It may not be the #1 option, or the ideal weapon choice for most jobs, but any job that can use Savage Blade has something good going for it. I have no problem with Savage Blade being powerful: I love it. It's a great WS. As somebody who's always enjoyed and only recently started to take it seriously, I just believe scythe should have it's own WS that can compare. And that WS shouldn't be exclusive to a weapon that takes months to make.

    And yes, two handed weapons should be more powerful. Why should a WAR using a sword and shield be more powerful than a DRK with a scythe? Just because they would be better DD's does not make them the better jobs. DNC has so much more potential to it than DDing. THF has more uses than just being a DD. And don't get me started on how BLU would still be useful. My point is these lightweight jobs that dual wield should not come out on top of the heavy jobs. Despite being heavy, they can't take punishment without sacrificing their DPS. These jobs were supposed to be the best DD's, but that's far from being true.

    I could spend hours dissecting your comments and tell you all the problems with what you've said, and I'm sure you could attempt to do the same to me. You make yourself look like a fool with your pathetic attempts of being condescending and sarcastic. You're not as smart as you think you are. Your attitude, mindset, and opinions have done nothing but make me dislike you. That is all you've accomplished here. Nothing else. You think you've made excellent points and arguments and destroyed mine by personally attacking my DRK and me as a player, assuming I don't have a magic accuracy set for drain and absorb spells. You made a complete evaluation on me based on what you think you know. Do yourself a favor and learn how to perform critical thinking.
    (4)

  8. #18
    Player Hoshi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurstian
    Posts
    456
    Character
    Hoshiku
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RNG Lv 99
    Seems this thread has verged away a bit from the OP but reading the title all I could think of was how hellacious snatch morsel spam is going to be on a mob where you probably need sublime sushi to hit it. ;3
    (0)

  9. #19
    Player Urthdigger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Bastok
    Posts
    313
    Character
    Urthdigger
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoshi View Post
    Seems this thread has verged away a bit from the OP but reading the title all I could think of was how hellacious snatch morsel spam is going to be on a mob where you probably need sublime sushi to hit it. ;3
    And then the tank eats food with evasion on it.
    (1)
    He once sold his soul to Promathia for a rare drop. He later won it back in a drinking contest, before beating up the twilight god for good measure.
    He's won dance-off trophies from the Republic of Bastok, the Duchy of Jeuno, and the Yagudo Theomilitary.
    He's won entire arguments with a single leer.
    He is the most interesting galka in the world.

  10. #20
    Player Siviard's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    336
    Character
    Siviard
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    I could see the Reflect trolling now.

    Troll BLM casts Death on the Apex Colibri
    Apex Colibri tries to Reflect Death
    Troll BLM warps out!
    Apex Colibri has Death "stored"
    CP party tank pulls the Apex Colibri
    CP party tank gets one-shotted by Death
    Troll BLM LOLs
    (2)

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