Apex Colibri {Can I have it?}

[OmnysValefor]

As we all know, the optimum setup for an apex party is 1-2 tank/melee 2-4 BLM/SCH and a GEO. It's disgusting, but it's the winning solution.

Two handers are left in the cold, bards are left in the cold. Healing WHM, SCH, RDM generally are left in the cold. A GEO can keep everyone alive as well as any healer if the tank is worth anything.

Edit: Two handers currently gearing up are left in the cold because they're shorted the accuracy bonus that can be aquired from an offhand weapon/augments to said weapon. Grips, even accuracy grips, do not compare.

I hate turning people away when I don't think their acc is sufficient but as the party leader, the success of the group is on my name. If I put together terrible groups, neither the low-acc melee or I will be getting any more parties.

At 75, the situation was reverse. Noone wanted BLM because the target of choice, Greater Colibri, reflected magic damage, but BLM had alternatives and because merit points could be earned on any job, for any job, you didn't have to worry. Also back then, /37 wasn't high enough to let subjobs cast haste.

Suggestion: Apex Colibri. Give them the full skillset they had, and lower their evasion because melee cant eat food. Give them low enough hp that a a three step skillchain from fairly geared melee will kill them, or make them reward more CP.

The ideal setup for this party would be Healer, Bard/Cor/GEO *, Tank/Melee, Melee, Melee/COR

Ranger is included as melee for simplicity's sake.

I haven't once had a high-performing CP party with more than one two melee including the tank. Part of the reason for this is that most players TP so fast, there isn't much room for a third melee.

Suggestion 2: Make a mob that is especially vulnerable to skillchains but absorbs magic damage/magic bursting.

* I think if you design mobs that malaise/languor/acumen/focus (I know people like haste/regain, but all three buffers can help) isn't the best option against, people will start using the other buffers again. If you design mobs that magic bursting isn't far and away the best option, people will start inviting melee.

I've had slow days where I couldn't get a party going and people start laying out a four or 5 step skillchain and my immediate thought is: I'm not working significantly harder for significantly less experience points. One person misses an SC or mistimes, and it's just a mess.

There may be people that read this thread and consider me to be too elitist, but that's really not the case. I'm tired of watching people struggle for enough accuracy only to compete for 1-2 spots in a party.

Edit: Oh and, please make more than one good camp. That's the bottle-neck with crabs. There's one good camp.

On the other hand, if you make them non-aggressive, a bard-party can move around. If there's one weakness geo has, and I'm not complaining, it's a lack of mobility.

[cengeal]

This is anything but elitist. Recently I tried to do an apex party on DRK (which is decently geared, but by no means godly). It went terrible. Even with sublime sushi on, was still struggling to hit. Doesn't help that I was a total MP sponge. Apex Colibri could at least see the return of old-school merit party setups. Most importantly, it would make getting JPs for WAR, DRK, and DRG more enjoyable, and easier as well. There's a lot to work with here, and I hope the dev team responds to it.

[Vae]

So, while I think its a good idea, that will go completely ignored... I would rather, given there was actually some kind of option that allowed players some actual input instead of talking to people that couldn't care less..

That CP was just completely abolished and we had legit levels again.

Aside from completely hating ilvl, I don't particularly enjoy playing this game the same way I used to in 2004. The only difference being higher level magic.

Because yes, Sorrowval parties with blm bursting flood was very entertaining....

Falling upon deaf ears.

[Genz]

It's not a bad idea, but it's only a band-aid.

I'm wondering if the devs are planning any radical change to salvage the game balance, like they did when they chose to nerf Perfect Defense.

[Ulth]

Edit: Two handers currently gearing up are left in the cold because they're shorted the accuracy bonus that can be aquired from an offhand weapon/augments to said weapon. Grips, even accuracy grips, do not compare.

Lets compare a thf using a max augment Taming Sari with a Sandung offhand, (probably the best two daggers for accuracy) to a drk using Cronus with a Flanged Grip. 20 accuracy and 22 dex on the taming sari gives it an accuracy bonus of 37 plus the 50 from the augments on Sandung gives the thf 87 accuracy from their main and sub slot. Cronus has an accuracy of 15 with augmented accuracy of 70 add in the 10 accuracy from the grip and that's a total of 95. 95 is greater than 87.

[OmnysValefor]

I'll leave it intact, I said it. I didn't realize acc buffs were that high on the augments for JSE weapons but still, doesn't change the general idea of the apex-bird party.

(Last time I looked at jse page, augment info wasn't yet posted).

It also doesn't change that augments on other 2h weapons/h2h need to be addressed.

Lets compare a thf using a max augment Taming Sari with a Sandung offhand, (probably the best two daggers for accuracy) to a drk using Cronus with a Flanged Grip. 20 accuracy and 22 dex on the taming sari gives it an accuracy bonus of 37 plus the 50 from the augments on Sandung gives the thf 87 accuracy from their main and sub slot. Cronus has an accuracy of 15 with augmented accuracy of 70 add in the 10 accuracy from the grip and that's a total of 95. 95 is greater than 87.

Let's not do that, because we're not talking about high end geared players, we're talking about players gearing up. I have no doubt that people killing Ru'Aun and Rei tier 2s and tier 3s can compete in an apex party.

So let's go Taming Sari (22 DEX + 20 ACC) + Nibiru Knife (5 DEX + 20 ACC) -- 40 Acc, 27 DEX making 60 acc total,
vs Nibiru Sickle (20 Acc) + say a 10 or 15 Acc Grip -- 35 Acc total.
vs Nibiru Santi (25 Acc) -- 25 Acc total.

Edit: You know what? I have no interest in playing 2h'ers (besides RUN as a tank, next job) and buffs to these won't change that, but I can see past my own jobs

Edit #2: I also don't have accuracy problems on my melee. I have such a variety of gear, but I've helped people gear up, and as I recently came back, I had to go through gearing up and I can see the problem.

Make melee friendly mobs and you'll have bards willing to sing an acc song. However, on mb mobs, I'm hurting the party by casting geo-precision (or eva-down, can't recall name) because someone doesn't have the acc.

[Ulth]

I've done melee set ups on the apex crawlers plenty of times and it works just fine. Also I know a bard who got her stars by meleeing with trusts as a bard in escha zi'tah. The amount of roads to get JP is staggering. SE doesn't need to waste time making something that is incredibly easy even easier because it's not quite as easy as it is for magic burst jobs.

[cengeal]

Lets compare a thf using a max augment Taming Sari with a Sandung offhand, (probably the best two daggers for accuracy) to a drk using Cronus with a Flanged Grip. 20 accuracy and 22 dex on the taming sari gives it an accuracy bonus of 37 plus the 50 from the augments on Sandung gives the thf 87 accuracy from their main and sub slot. Cronus has an accuracy of 15 with augmented accuracy of 70 add in the 10 accuracy from the grip and that's a total of 95. 95 is greater than 87.

There are a few problems with this. While the scythe does indeed have a lot of accuracy on it, it doesn't change the fact that scythe WS's in general are very lackluster, whereas dagger has Rudra's Storm. +70 to the crappiest weapon in the game doesn't mean much. Secondly, most DRK's would rather use a GS, weapons that don't have that kind of accuracy boost available. You could argue the real problem is that grips in general just suck compared to wielding a second weapon. I think the most amount of accuracy on a grip is like what, 10? That's pathetic. Finally, 2H jobs have to sacrifice a lot more than dual wield jobs when swapping to accuracy gear. They often lose their DA, TA, critical hit, and most importantly, their X-hit setups. I realize dual wielders also suffer from this, but it affects the 2handers on a greater scale.

Comparing the best versus the best is an ineffective way to measure. While it's easier to get a Cronus with acc+70 than a capped tami sari, it also means less because DRK has lower natural accuracy than thief,and especially dancer, and don't even get me started on BLU. Also keep in mind, not everybody has access to the best equipment, which is a lot of what this thread is about. And like previously stated, scythe WS's are very unimpressive compared to sword and dagger. There's just no place for a scythe wielding DRK of moderate equipment in these groups. Aside from SAM, 2H jobs are rarely a welcome sight in high-end content.

[Ulth]

There are a few problems with this. While the scythe does indeed have a lot of accuracy on it, it doesn't change the fact that scythe WS's in general are very lackluster, whereas dagger has Rudra's Storm. +70 to the crappiest weapon in the game doesn't mean much. Secondly, most DRK's would rather use a GS, weapons that don't have that kind of accuracy boost available. You could argue the real problem is that grips in general just suck compared to wielding a second weapon. I think the most amount of accuracy on a grip is like what, 10? That's pathetic. Finally, 2H jobs have to sacrifice a lot more than dual wield jobs when swapping to accuracy gear. They often lose their DA, TA, critical hit, and most importantly, their X-hit setups. I realize dual wielders also suffer from this, but it affects the 2handers on a greater scale.

Comparing the best versus the best is an ineffective way to measure. While it's easier to get a Cronus with acc+70 than a capped tami sari, it also means less because DRK has lower natural accuracy than thief,and especially dancer, and don't even get me started on BLU. Also keep in mind, not everybody has access to the best equipment, which is a lot of what this thread is about. And like previously stated, scythe WS's are very unimpressive compared to sword and dagger. There's just no place for a scythe wielding DRK of moderate equipment in these groups. Aside from SAM, 2H jobs are rarely a welcome sight in high-end content.

Glad to see you are living in a pre rudra's nerf world. Wish I could go back there. Anyway there is a reason the ftp or number of hits on a dagger weaponskill is higher than say a scythe. So if you were comparing them based solely on that it would look like daggers weaponskills are much better. Only problem is they are done with daggers the weapons with the lowest base damage as opposed to a scythe the weapons with the highest base damage.

There are also disadvantages to dual wielding that you are over looking. One of the big ones is it lowers tp gain by lowering the delay of the weapons. Two hands on the other hand just get straight up job ability haste with their 2 hand weapons. That's really something that would mess up you X hit if you had to lower your weapon's delay rather then getting job haste. Then there is also the recent update where they changed the attack/defense cap for one hand jobs to 3.25 while 2 hand jobs got put at 3.75.

That's also not the best vs the best. That would be comparing RMEs, but that is a whole other can of worms. As for drk have naturally lower accuracy than thf, idk what's the difference between the dex of a 99 thf and drk, probably not a whole lot in the grand scheme of ilvl. Also if your accuracy is so lower perhaps there is some sort of spell you could cast. Maybe one that only drk has that would somehow get you more accuracy.

Should be worth noting that Cronus not only gets +70 accuracy from the augments, but also 10 base damage, and 10% WSD.

[cengeal]

Glad to see you are living in a pre rudra's nerf world. Wish I could go back there. Anyway there is a reason the ftp or number of hits on a dagger weaponskill is higher than say a scythe. So if you were comparing them based solely on that it would look like daggers weaponskills are much better. Only problem is they are done with daggers the weapons with the lowest base damage as opposed to a scythe the weapons with the highest base damage.

There are also disadvantages to dual wielding that you are over looking. One of the big ones is it lowers tp gain by lowering the delay of the weapons. Two hands on the other hand just get straight up job ability haste with their 2 hand weapons. That's really something that would mess up you X hit if you had to lower your weapon's delay rather then getting job haste. Then there is also the recent update where they changed the attack/defense cap for one hand jobs to 3.25 while 2 hand jobs got put at 3.75.

That's also not the best vs the best. That would be comparing RMEs, but that is a whole other can of worms. As for drk have naturally lower accuracy than thf, idk what's the difference between the dex of a 99 thf and drk, probably not a whole lot in the grand scheme of ilvl. Also if your accuracy is so lower perhaps there is some sort of spell you could cast. Maybe one that only drk has that would somehow get you more accuracy.

Should be worth noting that Cronus not only gets +70 accuracy from the augments, but also 10 base damage, and 10% WSD.

I'm not sure if you've ever played DRK, but from your statement it appears no. Rudra's Storm is by far a better WS than any Scythe WS. Even though Rudra's did get nerfed, it is still a very good WS. It's not that Rudra's post nerf is a little better, it's that everything is better.

The disadvantages of dual wielding are nothing compared to the benefits. Getting to use a second weapon with more accuracy, strength, dexterity, critical hit rate, triple attack, you get the point. The best grips are garbage compared to getting to wield a second weapon. Like I said, maybe it wouldn't be that much of a problem if grips were just better in general.

Other can of worms concerning RME's, as you said. DRK gets the least amount of accuracy from JP gifts for melee jobs (as far as I can tell), even though it needs it more than any other job. As a DRK you can -try- to cast absorb spells, but that isn't always successful. Also, the more spells they cast, the less they attack. The augments on Cronus are amazing, i will admit that. But amazing stats on a scythe don't mean much. 2H WS's in general are weak compared to even a post Rudra's nerf, CDC, Savage Blade, etc. Common sense says a Great Axe will do more damage to a large enemy like a Hydra than two dinky daggers. Unfortunately SE doesn't seem to agree with it.