Episode VI: FFXI - Return of the DD!!! -

[Belmonts]

In my humble opinion, all new high tier stuff is so fixated on accuracy is somewhat ridiculous.

Sure, the new abjuration stuff is sweet and all that, but there are gear that was more job related (i.e. empyrean armor) that had cool stuff like Yonin augmentation, Footwork +15 and other stuff that would make your job specific attributes more amazing. Sure, some of them you can make 'em just a macro piece, but others have to be on yourself full time so the effect can be up at all times.

But instead of that, to hit a... lets say, a T3 in Reisenjima, like one of The Beetles song says: "♪All you need is... Accuracy♬ ((；´・ω・)？？)". To the point nothing else matters. Again, abjuration gear has amazing stats, but many of them are ""generic"" (yeah ppl will say "nuh nuh nuh, it is very specific for my job") but the thing is, that there are more specific gear for a job, but on 80% of the new 130+ level stuff, you simply can't wear those. All you need is Accuracy, period.

A good DD yes, must have a lot of stuff, such as temps, potions, PDT- gear, antidotes, food, remedies, because they can't just be "I have Para, chop chop, mages" especially if those AoE's (like dragons wings TP AoEs, which they have ridiculous long range radius) also paralyze healers and is so potent that they are struggling to remove those ailment on themselves to keep alive the party with heals. But that aside, being prepared has to be a must and it draws a line between a -good DD- and a -MP sponge-/-Bad DD-. There is this fixation on artificial difficulty that SE gave us with new NM's and their absurd Physical Evasion that makes me really frustrated.

We all know that, on a Developers whim, they can adjust M.Eva and M.Defense on mobs to a point that a nowadays bandwagon Magic Zerg Burst can be no longer the bandwagon trend anymore, has happened before and nobody liked it, but let see how long this will last. So far, even Grekumah said they have no plans to adjust this.

So to everyone else who are not accustomed to some static strats or a regular LS, who will appreciate people with useful evasion- steps or other nice strategy will say you in a tell after you responded a shout:

"We don't need that, we only need a BST or a bunch of SCHs and BLMs who can self SC and Magic Burst it, so |Thanks for your offer, but I'll have to pass|" stuff.

Again, it has happened before and they will keep it up forevermore...

My two cents.

[xiozen]

In my humble opinion, all new high tier stuff is so fixated on accuracy is somewhat ridiculous.

Sure, the new abjuration stuff is sweet and all that, but there are gear that was more job related (i.e. empyrean armor) that had cool stuff like Yonin augmentation, Footstep +15 and other stuff that would make your job specific attributes more amazing. Sure, some of them you can make 'em just a macro piece, but others have to be on yourself full time so the effect can be up at all times.

But instead of that, to hit a... lets say, a T3 in Reisenjima, like one of The Beetles song says: "♪All you need is... Accuracy♬ ((；´・ω・)？？)". To the point nothing else matters. Again, abjuration gear has amazing stats, but many of them are ""generic"" (yeah ppl will say "nuh nuh nuh, it is very specific for my job") but the thing is, that there are more specific gear for a job, but on 80% of the new 130+ level stuff, you simply can't wear those. All you need is Accuracy, period.

A good DD yes, must have a lot of stuff, such as temps, potions, PDT- gear, antidotes, food, remedies, because they can't just be "I have Para, chop chop, mages" especially if those AoE's (like dragons wings TP AoEs, which they have ridiculous long rage radius) also paralyze healers and is so potent that they are struggling to remove those ailment on themselves to keep alive the party with heals. But that aside, being prepared has to be a must and it draws a line between a -good DD- and a -MP sponge-/-Bad DD-. There is this fixation on artificial difficulty that SE gave us with new NM's and their absurd Physical Evasion that makes me really frustrated.

We all know that, on a Developers whim, they can adjust M.Eva and M.Defense on mobs to a point that a nowadays bandwagon Magic Zerg Burst can be no longer the bandwagon trend anymore, has happened before and nobody liked it, but let see how long this will last. So far, even Grekumah said they have no plans to adjust this.

So to everyone else who are not accustomed to some static strats or a regular LS, who will appreciate people with useful evasion- steps or other nice strategy will say you in a tell after you responded a shout:

"We don't need that, we only need a BST or a bunch of SCHs and BLMs who can self SC and Magic Burst it, so |Thanks for your offer, but I'll have to pass|" stuff.

Again, it has happened before and they will keep it up forevermore...

My two cents.

Wow, this seems to capture the current gameplay attitude quite accurately; especially in content 130+ (Sinister Reign comes to mind...)... the OP is a scythe welding Dark Knight and we know the fate of a scythe welding Dark Knight... but does it "have to be this way"... probably and probably not, depends on the player. A little research and a lot of investment will make a difference since this game isn't exactly cookie-cutter it does require that if you don't fit the "mold" such as having the required accuracy to hit the mob as a melee DPS job, (Scythe welding Dark Knight) then you'll wiff wiff every time and no amount of wishing will get you anywhere, however if you spend time investing in the jobs abilities, stats, weapons and multiple armor sets for swap purposes to account for the varying battle conditions you may find yourself in, I believe even a Scythe welding Dark Knight can fit comfortably in any content, with some exceptions due to mechanics, but nevertheless, it can still "work" acceptably so... you'll just need to invest significantly more than non-melee DPS (aka mage).

[Ulth]

I also want to point out, aside from Terpsichore, nothing I have is best in slot anymore, except possibly Horos Toeshoes +1, and there's better acc options.

If you had, for example, a full set of Herculean gear from Reisenjima, you could, if I'm reading this correctly, get it augmented with 30 accuracy, 30 attack, and -4% DT per piece. have that on your whole set and you're looking at +150 acc and -20%DT on just those five slots. That's on top of the 37 already on the set. So that's 187 accuracy and -20%DT. Which is 117 more accuracy than I have on my -DT set. And it would mean I could hit 37%-DT with Vocane Ring and Defending Ring, or someone with two nice Dark Rings could hit -30%. Throw on a Twilight Torque and a Mollusca Mantle, and that would be -47% DT with Defending and Vocane, or -40% with two dark rings.

So not only can you get -40~47% DT, but you can get higher accuracy than I have in my current DT set, and better base stats on the gear to boot. I mean, if I had that, I could hit -47% DT, and hit ~1220 accuracy, with just food. And then with Quickstep I could lower the target's evasion by 44, effectively giving me ~1260 accuracy. And this is all before any outside buffs.

So please, go on telling me about how melee DD are worthless.

What if you want to play something other then dancer? Dancer pretty much has the market cornered on accuracy with it's accuracy bonus traits and the massive amounts it gets from gifts. Thief gets 36 accuracy and dancer gets 64, add that to the 35 from accuracy bonus III and dancer has 63 more accuracy than thief. Then like you mentioned dancer has job abilities that help. Steps fall under a category of their own and stacks with everything while being able to be put up all the time, while thief's accuracy helping abilities can not be up all the time and feint conflicts with distract.

Dancer also has abilities that helps with staying alive, like you mentioned fan dance which gives pdt II, and then waltz to cure and remove statues effects and now also gives blink. Thief gets treasure hunter, something that everyone gets now because of dark matter augments on reisenjima armor. And while it would be nice to get max augments for damage taken and accuracy on Herculean, that is very unlikely for one piece let alone all 5. Maybe if you could roll augment individually like with snow/leaf/dusk but with the current system, I don't see it being viable.

I guess my point is while accuracy and damage taken might not be an issue for dancer, it is for other jobs, and you saying that those players are bad for basically not being lucky with random augments is pretty mean.

[Urthdigger]

They should honestly just remove melee DD from the game. It's just a trap for folks to waste their time on nowadays.

[machini]

Ulth, if you wanted to play something other than Dancer, do it.

With no THF-specific gear on other than Sandung and an unaugmented Canny Cape, using random crap I had laying around, as I have no specific THF gear that is not +Treasure Hunter, I can hit 989 Accuracy as THF/WAR. Throw in 36 more Accuracy from Job Points (to reflect all those job points I have on DNC) and you're looking at 1025 accuracy. Throw on some shoes that have more than 5 accuracy on them, like a pair of Taeon Shoes with a decent accuracy augment (+15 ACC augment) and you're looking at 1042 accuracy. Eat some sublime sushi and you're at 1142 accuracy, before outside buffs. Switch to THF/DNC instead of THF/WAR, and you're now at 1153 accuracy. Now please reflect that nothing I am putting my THF in is BiS, that there are better alternatives for virtually every piece of gear I'm using on this THF, as some of it isn't actually even accuracy gear (there's better options for accuracy than the +2 ACC on my waist slot, for instance), and you could easily hit 1150 accuracy. Throw on some actual THF-specific gear, like a Path C Shijo, and that's 1175 Accuracy.

And no, I'm not saying that other players are bad. As above with my THF example, I have no Reisenjima gear. The augmentable items I'm using are either mezotinted or alluvion skirmish stuff. So I'll thank you kindly to not put words in my mouth.

I have a friend who has just restarted playing, and in a very short period of time we were able to get her up to being able to hit ~1120 accuracy, going from essentially spark gear to where she is now. It's via Skirmish gear.

There are a plethora of options out there to gear dual wield jobs. If you want to talk about jobs that actually need the help, you're talking about WAR, DRK, and SAM, to name three. Unfortunately, I cannot give you any good numbers for them, as the gear I have for them is all so horrendously out of date.

If you give melees the same support that non-melees get, and put them in comparable gear (as I know those BLMs aren't getting 99999 bursts in Spark armor), they can do just fine. And looking at my THF, I lose 27 accuracy if I put on -DT gear, which, coincidentally, also gives me -27% Damage Taken. Which could be made up for with better augments. And losing a theoretical maximum 13% hit rate to gain 37% more effective HP is a pretty decent trade off.

It's not hard to get decently augmented Alluvion Skirmish armor. It's also not hard to get Escha - Zi'tah gear which can be augmented and be better than Alluvion Armor. You need to understand that you can't hit 99, slap on some spark armor, and dive right on in to level 135 content. This is something I see an awful lot of people having a problem understanding. Just because it says "Item Level 119" on your gear, that means nothing. Not all 119 gear is created equal. There has been a lot of power creep, and it's going to be necessary for you to gear yourself in increments. Get some alluvion skirmish armor, get some okay augments on it, do some Escha - Zi'tah, get some rawhide/pursuer's/whatever, mezotint it, work your way up. I didn't just miraculously hit 99 and be able to get my accuracy as high as it is on either DNC or THF the instant SoA came out. I did skirmish, I did delve, I reforged gear, I did more skirmish, I reforged gear, I did Escha, I reforged even more gear.

Looking at SAM gear, with a full set of Acro with at least 5 Dexterity and 15 accuracy on each piece, which is not in any way hard to get, you should be able to hit roughly 1070 accuracy with a couple of accessories with ACC on them and sublime sushi. That is admitted lower than I could get on THF, but this is using gear a decent set of Alluvion Skirmish armor, combined with gear I have on me for SAM which hasn't been touched since Delve II was a thing.

Does content need to be adjusted for melee jobs that have innately lower accuracy? Yes.

Is that because it's impossible for those jobs to be useful in current content? Mostly no.

The reason you don't see people wanting to do melee-centric strategies for a lot of things, and prefer to sit back and nuke, or sic pets on things, is because that's easier, safer, and requires very little coordination or teamwork. There are so many examples of how "proper" strategies for doing things are actually worse than doing them in a way that requires coordination and teamwork. There are people I know who refuse to coordinate skillchains, or do anything but close a skillchain, even when a little coordination results in much faster, safer, and surer kills. 'cause it's easier for them to just spam a single WS as soon as they get 1000 TP than it is for them to have to wait and cooperate.

[Ulth]

Oh wow 1175 accuracy including food consider my previous argument withdrawn. /s

That might be fine for some T1 and T2 escha nms, but not for T3s and helms.

And yeah people who don't know how to skillchain and still wear thaumus coat are annoying, but that is not what this is about. It's about monsters the size of houses having crazy high evasion and AoE moves that will drop anyone other than a tank on the front line.

[Urthdigger]

It's also not hard to get Escha - Zi'tah gear which can be augmented and be better than Alluvion Armor.

I really don't think a DD who's not already at near BiS could get folks to follow them to Escha - Zitah unless those folks are kind enough to carry him. Alluvion's possible though, as you can use RoE vouchers for obsidian to avoid needing to actually fight.

[machini]

Oh wow 1175 accuracy including food consider my previous argument withdrawn. /s

That might be fine for some T1 and T2 escha nms, but not for T3s and helms.

And yeah people who don't know how to skillchain and still wear thaumus coat are annoying, but that is not what this is about. It's about monsters the size of houses having crazy high evasion and AoE moves that will drop anyone other than a tank on the front line.

Again, I'm not trying to say this isn't a problem and sweep it under the rug. It is a problem, but the problem isn't just "high ACC is hard to get." The problem is also partly the playerbase not wanting to do anything that isn't the easiest, safest, most idiot-proofed strategy. Those strategies tend not to be fun, though, and severely limit who and what can come. The only real way I see of actually addressing this problem in a way that would have any real effect would be to incentivize bringing unpopular jobs. Unfortunatley, that would never get implemented. I've brought the suggestion up before, and people were very... upset at the thought of people getting bonuses for doing new and different things.

[Olor]

I really don't think a DD who's not already at near BiS could get folks to follow them to Escha - Zitah unless those folks are kind enough to carry him. Alluvion's possible though, as you can use RoE vouchers for obsidian to avoid needing to actually fight.

This. I've got basic 119 gear, and *do not* feel confident leading a party to kill Escha NM's I've never fought. I don't like being a millstone. There is not really an adequate stepping stone between skirmish and everything else, at least not without millions and millions of gil in stones. At least I used to be able to bard but now GEO has completely supplanted that and BRDs are not really in demand.

Besides which *no one* is shouting for those lower tier NMs. Only stuff I see shouts for is CP parties (which I am also not geared enough to join...) and high-tier endgame. The middle is totally hollow.


And honestly I can't even really bear to use the stones anymore it's just so depressing to roll crappy augs over and over and over and over again.

[Urthdigger]

This. I've got basic 119 gear, and *do not* feel confident leading a party to kill Escha NM's I've never fought. I don't like being a millstone. There is not really an adequate stepping stone between skirmish and everything else, at least not without millions and millions of gil in stones. At least I used to be able to bard but now GEO has completely supplanted that and BRDs are not really in demand.

Besides which *no one* is shouting for those lower tier NMs. Only stuff I see shouts for is CP parties (which I am also not geared enough to join...) and high-tier endgame. The middle is totally hollow.


And honestly I can't even really bear to use the stones anymore it's just so depressing to roll crappy augs over and over and over and over again.

This right here is basically the issue. In order for a melee to participate in endgame, they already need to have endgame gear, stuff they can't solo. The only real option is to gear up a REAL job first, and do endgame with it... but at that point, why even bother gearing up a job you'll never get to use? Even if you use the other job to level up a melee, it's clear what you'll actually be using :P