How do Magic Mortar and Flame Holder interface?

[VahnEris]

• Flame Holder
  This attachment currently gives a similar effect to “Damage varies with TP” and the effect value varies depending on the amount of fire maneuvers you have, which is shown below.
  
  • No fire maneuvers: damage +25%
    *Currently there is a bug and no damage bonus is given when you do not have any fire maneuvers. This will be fixed in the September version update. Also with this change, the effect of the Flame Holder attachment will stack additional damage onto the damage from Magic Mortar that is calculated from the automaton’s missing HP.
    
  • 1 fire maneuver: damage +100%
  • 2 fire maneuvers: damage +175%
  • 3 fire maneuvers: damage +250%

• Magic Mortar
  Base stat: Damage varies depending on automaton’s remaining HP
  Modifier stat: none
  TP1000: Damage＋50%
  TP2000: Damage＋75%
  TP3000: Damage＋150%

I have done extensive testing of both magic mortar and of flame holder. I've deduced that either the representation of the information we were given, and how they would stack together, is either wrong or misleading.

Flame Holder seems to work perfectly fine with every other Weaponskill I have tested, producing great results for Bone Crusher and String Shredder in particular. However, Flame Holder doesn't seem to work that same way with Magic Mortar.

A very good example is this test, which is just one of the many I performed.

Build the Automaton up to 3k TP, change gear to erase master TP to stop Inhibitor from inhibiting. Automaton HP is 1588/4264, melee skill is 408. Put up three maneuvers with Flame Holder equipped. Deploy Automaton against Blanched Mandragora in Ceizak Battlegrounds. Magic Mortar is performed immediately, does 5425 damage. Automaton kills Blanched Mandragora with melee strikes. Immediately afterwards, equip Empath Necklace in the neck slot to regen hp back to 1588/4264, remove as soon as it hits that. Put up three fire maneuvers, deploy against target from 17 yalms. Heat Capacitor 1&2 activate, giving Automaton 3k TP, erasing all fire maneuvers in the process. Magic Mortar goes off almost immediately afterwards, dealing 4744 damage. There was no time for the Automaton to get hit, or take any damage. The only difference between those two Magic Mortars are the three fire maneuvers.

Magic Mortar has a base modifier of 1.5 at 3k tp for damage gained from HP lost. So essentially "[Max HP-Current HP]1.5+Melee skill" should be the damage formula when the Automaton has 3k TP. If Flame Holder STACKS with the base damage of Magic Mortar, the formula would be "[Max HP-Current HP]4+Melee skill" at 3k tp. This clearly isn't the case from what I am observing. Camate specifically said that it works with the damage calculated from the Automaton's missing HP, but anywhere you throw a modifier as large as 2.5, you aren't going to see a result as small as an additional 681 damage.

How does Flame Holder work with Magic Mortar? Because these results indicate that it does not do what it does with every other Automaton Weaponskill I have tested.

[Marada]

Did you take the Madragora's Gaurding in to account? Or any other possible dmg resisting? Madragora's are MNK type mobs. I'm not two well versed on guard's activation because I never really pay attention to it anymore, but that could be part of it. Another could be that Flame holder just doesn't work with Magic Mortar to begin with. Even if they say it does, maybe the HP modifier trumps Flame holder and that's all.

[Roja323]

According to the wiki, flame holder adds 25% dmg, or 250/100:


408 + (2676*1.25)*1.5 = 5425 , which is exactly what you are getting.

This 25% increase is 250/100, so my guess is that its a broken formula and it should be

408 + (2676*2.5)*1.5 = 10443

[VahnEris]

According to the wiki, flame holder adds 25% dmg, or 250/100:


408 + (2676*1.25)*1.5 = 5425 , which is exactly what you are getting.

This 25% increase is 250/100, so my guess is that its a broken formula and it should be

408 + (2676*2.5)*1.5 = 10443

Same conclusion I was drawing. Essentially, the additional fire maneuvers from Flame Holder aren't affecting Magic Mortar. I'm guessing it's because the formula for Magic Mortar is different from all the other Automaton WS, so when they went to update Flame Holder, they forgot to make the multiplier apply or something? I don't know. What I do know is that either they outright lied about how Magic Mortar works with Flame Holder, or far more likely... It's a bug.

[Roja323]

Except fire maneuvers are affecting magic mortar. Your are just getting 25% instead of 250%. You would be getting 0% if it had no effect.

[VahnEris]

[LIST][*]No fire maneuvers: damage +25%
*Currently there is a bug and no damage bonus is given when you do not have any fire maneuvers. This will be fixed in the September version update. Also with this change, the effect of the Flame Holder attachment will stack additional damage onto the damage from Magic Mortar that is calculated from the automaton’s missing HP.

No, it's doing what it isn't supposed to do. Without any maneuvers it SHOULD provide 25%. They said it would be fixed in the September update. It's harder to test to see if it's actually been fixed, but I suppose I could do it with Cannibal Blade.

Either way, the strength is supposed to increase based on number on fire maneuvers. It isn't, it's just bugged and requires that you have at least one fire maneuver active in order for it to kick in. I suppose I should just write a bug report since I imagine at this point it's the only way the Devs are going to bother addressing it.

[Camate]

How does Flame Holder work with Magic Mortar? Because these results indicate that it does not do what it does with every other Automaton Weaponskill I have tested.

To cut right to the chase, Flame Holder is working as intended with Magic Mortar, and there aren’t any bugs with the damage calculations.

As mentioned in my previous post, Flame Holder’s effect will stack additional damage onto the damage from Magic Mortar that is calculated from the automaton’s missing HP. In other words, it only affects the damage bonus.

However, there is a set damage cap for Magic Mortar, which is reached when either your automaton’s HP is 1 or you have 3000 TP, and exceeding this cap with the Flame Holder’s bonus will not yield any additional damage.

Hopefully this helps shed a bit of light on your testing!

[dasva]

So not working when you are trying to max it is "working as intended"... ok. Seems odd to make it so only 1 ws doesn't receive benefits from an attachment and then only at high tp

[VahnEris]

My last series of tests weren't quite strict enough to provide solid results, but they were good enough to tell me something was wrong. Since I now have something from devs saying it's working as intended, I'll post my recent series of tests. After you look at them, it's immediately clear what Flame Holder does with Magic Mortar.

All tests are performed on Blanched Mandragoras in Ceizak Battlegrounds. Heat Capacitors are used to provide 3000tp. All tests are performed at 3000TP. Automaton HP is confirmed with the ingame menu for automatons. Automaton is drained of all MP so that the AI would not attempt to do anything other than use Magic Mortar immediately after being deployed. Current refers to current HP, ftp refers to damage bonus. Damage bonus is displayed as a decimal rather than as a percentage, but it's irrelevant.

Damage - 2830
Max HP - 3376
Current - 1866
Diff -1510
Skill - 424
Flame - 0x
Ftp - 1.59

Damage - 2972
Max HP - 3376
Current - 1866
Diff -1510
Skill - 424
Flame - 1x
Ftp - 1.68

Damage - 3113
Max HP - 3376
Current - 1866
Diff -1510
Skill -424
Flame - 2x
Ftp -1.78

Damage - 3225
Max HP - 3376
Current - 1866
Diff -1510
Skill -424
Flame - 3x
Ftp -1.85

Damage - 6903
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0188
Diff -4076
Skill -408
Flame - 0x
Ftp -1.59

Damage - 7286
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0188
Diff -4076
Skill -408
Flame - 1x
Ftp -1.68

Damage - 7668
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0188
Diff -4076
Skill -408
Flame - 2x
Ftp -1.78

Damage - 8050
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0188
Diff -4076
Skill -408
Flame - 3x
Ftp -1.87

Damage - 7178
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0042
Diff -4222
Skill -408
Flame - 0x
Ftp -1.60

Damage - 7576
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0042
Diff -4222
Skill -408
Flame - 1x
Ftp -1.69

Damage - 7974
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0042
Diff -4222
Skill -408
Flame - 2x
Ftp -1.79

Damage - 8373
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0042
Diff -4222
Skill -408
Flame - 3x
Ftp -1.88

By using a combination of Venom potions, poison potions and regen gear, I was able to get my HP to exactly 1 and use Role Reversal to make my Automaton's HP 1.

Damage - 7186
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0001
Diff -4263
Skill -408
Flame - 0x
Ftp -1.59

Damage - 7569
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0001
Diff -4263
Skill -408
Flame - 1x
Ftp -1.68

Damage - 8001
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0001
Diff -4263
Skill -408
Flame - 2x
Ftp -1.78

Damage - 8401
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0001
Diff - 4263
Skill - 408
Flame - 3x
Ftp - 1.87

So in conclusion, Flame Holder is adding 0.10ftp(10% damage) per fire maneuver. There is no such cap on the damage Magic Mortar can do, other than the mathematical limit based on parameters. Or the cap is higher than what can actually be achieved. Either way it's irrelevant.

Devs already said it is working as intended, so it's going to stay like this. Just so everyone else can be aware, it DOES NOT WORK HOW THE DEVS HAVE SUGGESTED. It's a straight 0.10ftp multiplier per maneuver.

[Roja323]

Just going to throw this out there, do your tests at 1k tp without max difference, and you might see different results. It might be adjusting the ftp value as well as giving a bonus to the hp differential, and if hp differential is max or TP = 3k, then you only get the ftp bonus. Which is what they are claiming, therefore you need to test at 1k tp and 50% (or any value other then 1 hp left).


From your numbers.
@3k tp
1x- 408 + (4263*1.120)*1.5 = 7569
2x- 408 + (4263*1.187)*1.5 = 8001
3x- 408 + (4263*1.250)*1.5 = 8401

To me, i see 100/175/250 in the bonus modifier, sure it looks like 112/187/250, but those are still pretty darn close to what they claim. Sure its not the 100% increase, but it lines up way to well to just be ignored. Also what dmg are you getting at 3k tp, 1 hp, no flame holder equipped.