[dev1289] Job Adjustments

[bazookatooth]

Unequip all of your gear, use only your Great Katana and see if you can replicate the initial 2-handed patch that allowed you to do full damage with no gear whatsoever on relevant content.

I'm unclear on this... So you think BST needs a nerf because SAM can't kill everything naked anymore?...

Jug pets tanked better than the 'tank frame' for PUP though. PUPs also have more to do to keep up (attachments.) Of course a PLD can still tank better...there would be a problem if it couldn't. Saltiness aside, if you played XI longer than 2 years, especially "old school XI" you know full well people don't bandwagon jobs just for the sake of it.

What is a bandwagon these day? I've had every job 99 for years now. I have relics for jobs that I haven't played in months. I still collect my gear for them, make my macros, etc. but I'm not going to play something that is subpar for the situation just because it's my "main". Maining a job doesn't really mean much to someone who has played since the JP launch. If the content allows for it, I'm gonna go THF, BST or MNK every time, but if it's high tier escha stuff, I'm on SCH, BLM or GEO because it faster and MNKs and THFs are a dime a dozen. Bandwagon or not.

That's not even really a debate though. PLD has always been and realistically should always be the "go to" tank and have been designed as such - which is why people always scream foul when it's incapable of properly tanking certain content. NIN was never meant to be a tank, but now they're trying to stick with the community design of it tanking it can't outdo PLD. RUN is in a weird spot because like DRK in XIV, it's extremely specialized but still works fine. And sadly, no not all pet jobs have been doing it as well as bst..again, there's a reason people bandwagoned to BST instead of SMN and PUP.

Whether PLD should be the best doesn't really matter to me. I'm just saying that the other jobs shouldn't be so far behind that they can't get an invite most of the time. I think PLD should be desired, but I don;t think any job should be absolutely necessary. Whether it's because the content actually requires it or just because people think the other jobs suck, if other jobs are lagging, they should be bumped up. I also think tanking should be more about getting and holding hate and less about just not getting killed. That's the main reason for all this BST nerf nonsense. Tanking is no longer about emnity. It's about survival and most jobs just can't survive well. Tank or not. It turned from a game of "who uses their abilities and gear macros to hold hate the best" to "Who is PLD".

I think people play SMN less because SMN and PUP are more complex to gear for. Not that the gear is necessarily harder to get, but it takes more research to know when to use what and where because they don;t work like most jobs. BST is straight forward. Pets have no buffs, no moving parts. Just a few moves and almost all of them do physical damage with one SC property. Anyone who has ever played a DD job can play it based on that knowledge at least to some extent because you gear for the same stats on your pet that a regular DD would. SMN and PUP have a lot of stats that don't translate to other DD jobs and they also have buffs etc. that fill more party rolls than just doing damage.

Not sure where to even begin with this.

When you are discussing the ability of a pet to tank - then yes - enmity is definitely a relevant factor and not an irrelevant tangent.Beast Master pets can tank even in parties (not just solo) because they create a lot of enmity with their crazy damage and can live while doing it due to their high defenses. Try doing that with other pet jobs. You are going to be disappointed.

It's irrelevant because nobody uses BST pets to tank except... Beastmasters. You will never see group killing escha NMs with a samurai, BLM etc. and a BST pet tanking. Even just having a GEO cast a bubble is a risky endeavor with just a pet tanking. You really have no idea how this stuff works. Quit while you're ahead and Go read a tanking guide. You need a lot more than just damage to hold hate. And anything that wouldn't eat through a pet and cost a bazzillion gil in thetas and mulsums is probably going to be way easier to beat using other jobs anyways.

In other words: there is no slightly different method that is going to make up the difference. The Beast Master pets are just superior in terms of tanking ability. When you have a pet that can both do great damage and tank - plus you have the added luxury of being able to stand back out of harm's way - that is just too much. You are officially a one man party at that point.

TANK WHAT? (Ignoring the fact that PUP can tank in parties and SMN would never want to) What are you seeing a BST tank that you really wish you could tank with you carbuncle and / or can't tank better on PLD? And here's the real kicker... I don;t even want to tank. I want you to take all the hits. I don;t want to drop all my money on Thetas and Mulsums. I'd much rather you take all the hits and just cast cure on yourself.

Paladin is a solid tank but I don't think they are miles ahead of RUN on everything except some rabbit in Zii'Tah. RUN has some innate advantages over Paladin when it comes to resisting elemental damage and that can give them the edge in quite a few fights.

They may have an advantage, but not enough advantage and not in enough fights to warrant ever needing RUN over PLD. And half the time it's for reyke and gambit. Not to tank.

[Dale]

It's irrelevant because nobody uses BST pets to tank except... Beastmasters. .

I've been in many parties that have utilized the Beast Master pets as tanks. So that just isn't the case.

[bazookatooth]

You basically just made my point for me. Though you probably don't realize it.

Now ask yourself this... "Why is that? Could it be because Beast Master pets make superior tanks when compared to the other pet jobs?"

I believe that might be the reason.

If other pet jobs could use their pets as tanks you had better believe they would be doing it.

Go hop on Samurai or BLM and try fighting an Escha Ra'Aun tier 2-3 NM with just a BST pet as tank. We'll all wait with bated breath for the screen shots of your (sure to be) incredibly successful attempts.

Here's a quote from the guy who wrote that pup tanking guide to mull over while you do that. "The methods I am talking about are for people who have extreme tanking needs. I.E. you have REALLY good DDs. I have literally the best Beastmasters in the game in my LS, so I've had to find and adopt better ways to manage enmity. "

Good luck with your BST tank.

[Dale]

Go hop on Samurai or BLM and try fighting an Escha Ra'Aun tier 2-3 NM with just a BST pet as tank. We'll all wait with bated breath for the screen shots of your (sure to be) incredibly successful attempts.

Here's a quote from the guy who wrote that pup tanking guide to mull over while you do that. "The methods I am talking about are for people who have extreme tanking needs. I.E. you have REALLY good DDs. I have literally the best Beastmasters in the game in my LS, so I've had to find and adopt better ways to manage enmity. "

Good luck with your BST tank.

As I've said, I've worked with Beast Master pets as tanks against all kinds of Notorious Monsters and battlefield bosses. They are quite impressive in that role and make excellent offensive tanks. They have a combination of both offense and defense that is unrivaled in my opinion.

Perhaps these samurai and black mage you mention just need to work on how to manage their threat a little better. Because they don't sound like very good DDs to me if they are incapable of working with a Beast Master pet/tank.

In any case: you are doing what is typical in these forums. You try to place every topic in the context of the extreme - as if the fact their pets can't tank some extremely difficult tier 3 NM that would probably take an army of support and a exceptionally well-geared Paladin to successfully tank anyway. Sorry but that doesn't mean they can't make good tanks.

[bazookatooth]

As I've said, I've worked with Beast Master pets as tanks against all kinds of Notorious Monsters and battlefield bosses. They are quite impressive in that role and make excellent offensive tanks.

Perhaps these samurai and black mage you mention just need to work on how to manage their threat a little better. Because they don't sound like very good DDs to me if they are incapable of working with a Beast Master pet/tank.

Everyone who plays BST is laughing at this comment right now because they know that you have never done it. Congratulations on jumping the shark my friend.

In any case: you are doing what is typical in these forums. You try to place every topic in the context of the extreme - as if the fact their pets can't tank some extremely difficult tier 3 NM that would probably take an army of support and a exceptionally well-geared Paladin to successfully tank anyway. Sorry but that doesn't mean they can't make good tanks.

From your original hyperbole on bst pets that started all this:

...while being able to tank some of the strongest notorious monsters in the game...

[Dale]

Everyone who plays BST is laughing at this comment right now because they know that you have never done it. Congratulations on jumping the shark my friend.

The problem with your post is I have done it. And done it many times.

It was a Beast Master pet who tanked titan for me so I could get my club if you want a specific example - one of many I could list you.

But you can continue to live in this delusion that Beast Master pets can't tank if you want. Because that's exactly what it is - a delusion. A complete fiction you are trying to pass off as realty because you don't want to admit Beast Masters needed to be nerfed. In the words of Nicholson "Sell crazy somewhere else..."

And yes, I said some of the strongest... I never said the strongest now did I?

I would hardly qualify that as hyperbole.

[bazookatooth]

The problem with your post is I have done it. And done it many times.

It was a Beast Master pet who tanked titan for me so I could get my club if you want a specific example - one of many I could list you.

But you can continue to live in this delusion that Beast Master pets can't tank if you want. Because that's exactly what it is - a delusion. A complete fiction you are trying to pass off as are realty because you don't want to admit Beast Masters needed to be nerfed. In the words of Nicholson "Sell crazy somewhere else..."

And by tanked it, you mean soloed it while you did nothing...

[Dale]

They may have an advantage, but not enough advantage and not in enough fights to warrant ever needing RUN over PLD. And half the time it's for reyke and gambit. Not to tank.

That wasn't what you said.

You said the Paladin was miles above Rune Fencer on everything except some rabbit in Zi'tah.

You did not say the RUN had an advantage, but not enough of an advantage to warrant ever needing a RUN over PLD. Those are two completely different statements.

So I'll take the fact you had to go back and drastically change what you originally said to show you were incorrect with your initial comment and now realize that. Because I of course never said you needed to have a RUN over a PLD to tank anything.