[dev1289] Job Adjustments

[bazookatooth]

You are taking my comment of context.

Anyone can take a post - insert it into an entirely different context - then pretend to destroy a point that was never being made. That's what you are doing here.

That post was in reference to other pet jobs which a poster claimed was capable of tanking mobs just as effectively as the Beast Master was. That's not the case: and that's what I was disputing.

I was never saying other DD jobs could not compete with a Beast Master for enmity or what ever it is you are trying to say here. What I was saying is that other pets i.e. the wyvern, the puppet etc. do not remotely compare with the Beast Master pets when it comes to enmity generation and tanking ability.

Dragons are not meant to tank, or even deal much damage for that matter. they support the master. Puppets actually tank quite well. Probably better than BST pets. Avatars can't tank well, but they are infinitely renewable and deal huge damage. PLD still tanks better than any pet. You made it sound like BST was OMG OP because it can pull hate off you. Any DD can do that. Whatever your point was, it was lost.

[Dale]

Dragons are not meant to tank, or even deal much damage for that matter. they support the master. Puppets actually tank quite well. Probably better than BST pets. Avatars can't tank well, but they are infinitely renewable and deal huge damage. PLD still tanks better than any pet. You made it sound like BST was OMG OP because it can pull hate off you. Any DD can do that. Whatever your point was, it was lost.

No it's your point that is lost actually.

You can't say all other pet jobs can tank just as well as the Beast Master (which is what the post I was responding to said) then try to counter my post by admitting they can't because they weren't designed to.

What ever you feel the other pet jobs are designed to do isn't the issue. My point - which you just ceded - is that the other pets do not come close to competing with the enmity generation of the Beast Master pets.

So not only was my point not lost - but you actually reinforced it for me. Thank you.

[bazookatooth]

No it's your point that is lost actually.

You can't say all other pet jobs can tank just as well as the Beast Master (which is what the post I was responding to said) then try to counter my post by admitting they can't because they weren't designed to.
What ever you feel the other pet jobs are designed to do isn't the issue. My point - which you just ceded - is that the other pets do not come close to competing with the enmity generation of the Beast Master pets.

This is what I mean... why are you trying to make that point??? First off, Puppets can tank quite well. Here's a guide to help you understand how that works: http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/47...a-tank-on-pup/. Second, why would DRG or SMN want to pull more emnity? SMN pets die and get recast multiple times in a fight. Why should they care if the pet does anything hate wise beyond creating the minimal amount of emnity required to keep the master from getting attacked? And DRG pets... come on. At least try to be serious.

So not only was my point not lost - but you actually reinforced it for me. Thank you.

I'm still lost. Pup can tank fine (See the above link). So I didn't support your point on that one. Summoner doesn't need to tank because pets are expendable. So I didn't support your point on that one (Unless your point was that spending money on Mulsums, thetas and jugs is easier than casting a spell). And dragoons aren't a real pet job so you can stop bringing them up. They are about as relevant to this conversation as BST is to party curing.

[Dale]

This is what I mean... why are you trying to make that point??? First off, Puppets can tank quite well. Here's a guide to help you understand how that works: http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/47...a-tank-on-pup/. Second, why would DRG or SMN want to pull more emnity? SMN pets die and get recast multiple times in a fight. Why should they care if the pet does anything hate wise beyond creating the minimal amount of emnity required to keep the master from getting attacked? And DRG pets... come on. At least try to be serious.



I'm still lost. Pup can tank fine (See the above link). So I didn't support your point on that one. Summoner doesn't need to tank because pets are expendable. So I didn't support your point on that one (Unless your point was that spending money on Mulsums, thetas and jugs is easier than casting a spell). And dragoons aren't a real pet job so you can stop bringing them up. They are about as relevant to this conversation as BST is to party curing.

My point was that the Beast Master pets tank much better than the other pet jobs. It was a simple point and I'm not sure why it has you so lost.

If you don't think it's relevant to the conversation then why did you comment on the post to begin with? I was answering another poster that was specifically talking about other pet jobs tanking and how they can do it just as well as Beast Masters. I was disputing that: so of course it was relevant.

As far as the puppet: fine, if you say so. Seeing a puppet master on this game is like finding a four leaf clover.

[bazookatooth]

My point was that the Beast Master pets tank much better than the other pet jobs. It was a simple point and I'm not sure why it has you so lost.

Because not only is it not true in the case of pup, but it doesn't matter because Pup can tank and SMN doesn't need to. BST also has higher Axe skill than any other pet job. Also irrelevant to the conversation. You can go on and debate it all you want, but it doesn't matter.

If you don't think it's relevant to the conversation then why did you comment on the post to begin with? I was answering another poster that was specifically talking about other pet jobs tanking and how they can do it just as well as Beast Masters. I was disputing that: so of course it was relevant.

No, you made this statement:

...when you can roll a Beast Master and do great damage while being able to tank some of the strongest notorious monsters in the game all while standing back and avoiding damage yourself?

And someone pointed out that all pet jobs have been doing that (pups by actually tanking and SMN by recalling pets). You took that off on some irrelevant tangent about emnity generation which does not change the outcome. Pet jobs have historically been able to kill things just like bst does albeit using slightly different methods (Because they are different jobs). Sometimes more or less successfully depending on the NM.

But the reason I responded was because it was both false (Pup can tank) and intentionally misleading (Smn doesn't need / want to tank like a bst pet) and I just don't like people spreading FUD.

As far as the puppet: fine, if you say so. Seeing a puppet master on this game is like finding a four leaf clover.

That's probably because people spread FUD all over the net about how pup sucks and other people believe it. Kind of like how you are basically telling everyone that they shouldn't play anything but bst right now.

Besides, the real tanking debate should be about the fact that PLD is miles ahead of NIN and RUN on everything but that stupid death rabbit in zitah.

[Elexia]

Ermm... Sam still does crazy damage via skill chains. And I played BLM throughout ToaU without a problem. What did I have to change jobs for? Salvage and...

Unequip all of your gear, use only your Great Katana and see if you can replicate the initial 2-handed patch that allowed you to do full damage with no gear whatsoever on relevant content.

Dragons are not meant to tank, or even deal much damage for that matter. they support the master. Puppets actually tank quite well. Probably better than BST pets. Avatars can't tank well, but they are infinitely renewable and deal huge damage. PLD still tanks better than any pet. You made it sound like BST was OMG OP because it can pull hate off you. Any DD can do that. Whatever your point was, it was lost.

Jug pets tanked better than the 'tank frame' for PUP though. PUPs also have more to do to keep up (attachments.) Of course a PLD can still tank better...there would be a problem if it couldn't. Saltiness aside, if you played XI longer than 2 years, especially "old school XI" you know full well people don't bandwagon jobs just for the sake of it.

That's probably because people spread FUD all over the net about how pup sucks and other people believe it. Kind of like how you are basically telling everyone that they shouldn't play anything but bst right now.

Besides, the real tanking debate should be about the fact that PLD is miles ahead of NIN and RUN on everything but that stupid death rabbit in zitah.

That's not even really a debate though. PLD has always been and realistically should always be the "go to" tank and have been designed as such - which is why people always scream foul when it's incapable of properly tanking certain content. NIN was never meant to be a tank, but now they're trying to stick with the community design of it tanking it can't outdo PLD. RUN is in a weird spot because like DRK in XIV, it's extremely specialized but still works fine. And sadly, no not all pet jobs have been doing it as well as bst..again, there's a reason people bandwagoned to BST instead of SMN and PUP.

[bazookatooth]

Unequip all of your gear, use only your Great Katana and see if you can replicate the initial 2-handed patch that allowed you to do full damage with no gear whatsoever on relevant content.

I'm unclear on this... So you think BST needs a nerf because SAM can't kill everything naked anymore?...

Jug pets tanked better than the 'tank frame' for PUP though. PUPs also have more to do to keep up (attachments.) Of course a PLD can still tank better...there would be a problem if it couldn't. Saltiness aside, if you played XI longer than 2 years, especially "old school XI" you know full well people don't bandwagon jobs just for the sake of it.

What is a bandwagon these day? I've had every job 99 for years now. I have relics for jobs that I haven't played in months. I still collect my gear for them, make my macros, etc. but I'm not going to play something that is subpar for the situation just because it's my "main". Maining a job doesn't really mean much to someone who has played since the JP launch. If the content allows for it, I'm gonna go THF, BST or MNK every time, but if it's high tier escha stuff, I'm on SCH, BLM or GEO because it faster and MNKs and THFs are a dime a dozen. Bandwagon or not.

That's not even really a debate though. PLD has always been and realistically should always be the "go to" tank and have been designed as such - which is why people always scream foul when it's incapable of properly tanking certain content. NIN was never meant to be a tank, but now they're trying to stick with the community design of it tanking it can't outdo PLD. RUN is in a weird spot because like DRK in XIV, it's extremely specialized but still works fine. And sadly, no not all pet jobs have been doing it as well as bst..again, there's a reason people bandwagoned to BST instead of SMN and PUP.

Whether PLD should be the best doesn't really matter to me. I'm just saying that the other jobs shouldn't be so far behind that they can't get an invite most of the time. I think PLD should be desired, but I don;t think any job should be absolutely necessary. Whether it's because the content actually requires it or just because people think the other jobs suck, if other jobs are lagging, they should be bumped up. I also think tanking should be more about getting and holding hate and less about just not getting killed. That's the main reason for all this BST nerf nonsense. Tanking is no longer about emnity. It's about survival and most jobs just can't survive well. Tank or not. It turned from a game of "who uses their abilities and gear macros to hold hate the best" to "Who is PLD".

I think people play SMN less because SMN and PUP are more complex to gear for. Not that the gear is necessarily harder to get, but it takes more research to know when to use what and where because they don;t work like most jobs. BST is straight forward. Pets have no buffs, no moving parts. Just a few moves and almost all of them do physical damage with one SC property. Anyone who has ever played a DD job can play it based on that knowledge at least to some extent because you gear for the same stats on your pet that a regular DD would. SMN and PUP have a lot of stats that don't translate to other DD jobs and they also have buffs etc. that fill more party rolls than just doing damage.

Not sure where to even begin with this.

When you are discussing the ability of a pet to tank - then yes - enmity is definitely a relevant factor and not an irrelevant tangent.Beast Master pets can tank even in parties (not just solo) because they create a lot of enmity with their crazy damage and can live while doing it due to their high defenses. Try doing that with other pet jobs. You are going to be disappointed.

It's irrelevant because nobody uses BST pets to tank except... Beastmasters. You will never see group killing escha NMs with a samurai, BLM etc. and a BST pet tanking. Even just having a GEO cast a bubble is a risky endeavor with just a pet tanking. You really have no idea how this stuff works. Quit while you're ahead and Go read a tanking guide. You need a lot more than just damage to hold hate. And anything that wouldn't eat through a pet and cost a bazzillion gil in thetas and mulsums is probably going to be way easier to beat using other jobs anyways.

In other words: there is no slightly different method that is going to make up the difference. The Beast Master pets are just superior in terms of tanking ability. When you have a pet that can both do great damage and tank - plus you have the added luxury of being able to stand back out of harm's way - that is just too much. You are officially a one man party at that point.

TANK WHAT? (Ignoring the fact that PUP can tank in parties and SMN would never want to) What are you seeing a BST tank that you really wish you could tank with you carbuncle and / or can't tank better on PLD? And here's the real kicker... I don;t even want to tank. I want you to take all the hits. I don;t want to drop all my money on Thetas and Mulsums. I'd much rather you take all the hits and just cast cure on yourself.

Paladin is a solid tank but I don't think they are miles ahead of RUN on everything except some rabbit in Zii'Tah. RUN has some innate advantages over Paladin when it comes to resisting elemental damage and that can give them the edge in quite a few fights.

They may have an advantage, but not enough advantage and not in enough fights to warrant ever needing RUN over PLD. And half the time it's for reyke and gambit. Not to tank.

[Dale]

[QUOTE=bazookatooth;562995]

My point was that the Beast Master pets tank much better than the other pet jobs. It was a simple point and I'm not sure why it has you so lost.[/quote[

Because not only is it not true in the case of pup, but it doesn't matter because Pup can tank and SMN doesn't need to. BST also has higher Axe skill than any other pet job. Also irrelevant to the conversation. You can go on and debate it all you want, but it doesn't matter.




No, you made this statement:



And someone pointed out that all pet jobs have been doing that (pups by actually tanking and SMN by recalling pets). You took that off on some irrelevant tangent about emnity generation which does not change the outcome. Pet jobs have historically been able to kill things just like bst does albeit using slightly different methods (Because they are different jobs). Sometimes more or less successfully depending on the NM.

But the reason I responded was because it was both false (Pup can tank) and intentionally misleading (Smn doesn't need / want to tank like a bst pet) and I just don't like people spreading FUD.




That's probably because people spread FUD all over the net about how pup sucks and other people believe it. Kind of like how you are basically telling everyone that they shouldn't play anything but bst right now.

Besides, the real tanking debate should be about the fact that PLD is miles ahead of NIN and RUN on everything but that stupid death rabbit in zitah.

Not sure where to even begin with this.

When you are discussing the ability of a pet to tank - then yes - enmity is definitely a relevant factor and not an irrelevant tangent.

Beast Master pets can tank even in parties (not just solo) because they create a lot of enmity with their crazy damage and can live while doing it due to their high defenses. Try doing that with other pet jobs. You are going to be disappointed.

In other words: there is no slightly different method that is going to make up the difference. The Beast Master pets are just superior in terms of tanking ability. When you have a pet that can both do great damage and tank - plus you have the added luxury of being able to stand back out of harm's way - that is just too much. You are officially a one man party at that point.

Paladin is a solid tank but I don't think they are miles ahead of RUN on everything except some rabbit in Zii'Tah. RUN has some innate advantages over Paladin when it comes to resisting elemental damage and that can give them the edge in quite a few fights.