[dev1289] Job Adjustments

[bazookatooth]

I doubt if anyone hates Beast Masters. I sure don't.

We are just being honest and recognizing they were too powerful. That's not the same as hate.

SAM has been OP for like 10 years and "Nerf SAM" threads have never gotten traction. SAM still outdamages BST and people are still complaining that bst damage is too high. It's weird.

[Dale]

SAM has been OP for like 10 years and "Nerf SAM" threads have never gotten traction. SAM still outdamages BST and people are still complaining that bst damage is too high. It's weird.

Samurais didn't have nearly the survivability of a Beast Master - who could stand safely out of harm's way while letting their super pet both tank and do damage. So it's not really an accurate comparison.

No one is saying Beast Masters were over-powered solely because of their damage. It was the fact they had such great damage combined with such great survivability. That was what made them too powerful.

[bazookatooth]

Samurais didn't have nearly the survivability of a Beast Master - who could stand safely out of harm's way while letting their super pet both tank and do damage. So it's not really an accurate comparison.

No one is saying Beast Masters were over-powered solely because of their damage. It was the fact they had such great damage combined with such great survivability. That was what made them too powerful.

A lot of people are complaining that BST does too much damage and they shouldn't. It isn't nearly the strongest job in that regard. It is the best at surviving large damage spikes. But that isn't what people are complaining about. And oddly enough, SAM, MONK, DRK and WAR could just eat damage and have a WHM mule cure through it for years without a nerf. Or RNG could just sit there and shoot. So BST being able to do it through pet food shouldn't shock or offend anyone.

That's part of the problem we have now. The reason people are using BST so much is because half the people playing now don't have DT- sets or know what any of the defensive spells do, so they just bring bst to any event that they can't plow through by spamming Fudo or Rudra's. That's how long those other jobs have been OP DD tanks. People completely forgot that they aren't supposed to be tanks. They don't know anything but zerg now. And the sad thing is that nerfing BST isn't going to bring the zerg back. It just pissed off BSTs. Players have weak defense and low HP and changing BST did nothing to fix that. These people who cried about BST still won't be able to get in groups on SAM, MNK etc. because they cried to nerf BST when they should have cried for more HP / defense and less cheap AOE mechanics.

The affects are already evident. Now instead of seeing people shouting for bst, they shout for SCH and people still aren't engaging these high tier monsters because they have cheap crappy AOE mechanics. Given that this is close to the final update, I guess SE just wants us to RNG or SCH burn everything for the duration of the game's life.

[Dale]

A lot of people are complaining that BST does too much damage and they shouldn't. It isn't nearly the strongest job in that regard. It is the best at surviving large damage spikes. But that isn't what people are complaining about. And oddly enough, SAM, MONK, DRK and WAR could just eat damage and have a WHM mule cure through it for years without a nerf. Or RNG could just sit there and shoot. So BST being able to do it through pet food shouldn't shock or offend anyone.

That's part of the problem we have now. The reason people are using BST so much is because half the people playing now don't have DT- sets or know what any of the defensive spells do, so they just bring bst to any event that they can't plow through by spamming Fudo or Rudra's. That's how long those other jobs have been OP DD tanks. People completely forgot that they aren't supposed to be tanks. They don't know anything but zerg now. And the sad thing is that nerfing BST isn't going to bring the zerg back. It just pissed off BSTs. Players have weak defense and low HP and changing BST did nothing to fix that. These people who cried about BST still won't be able to get in groups on SAM, MNK etc. because they cried to nerf BST when they should have cried for more HP / defense and less cheap AOE mechanics.

The affects are already evident. Now instead of seeing people shouting for bst, they shout for SCH and people still aren't engaging these high tier monsters because they have cheap crappy AOE mechanics. Given that this is close to the final update, I guess SE just wants us to RNG or SCH burn everything for the duration of the game's life.

I understand what you are saying. But t I have seen Beast Master pets out-survive my Paladin in full - damage sets while doing probably 100 times more damage than I would ever be capable of.

So it's just not realistic to imply all a Samurai would have to do is slap on a -DT set and he would instantly have the survivability that a Beast Master does.. I just don't see that happening. This isn't even to mention that equipping a full -DT set would significantly lower the damage output of the Melee DD anyway.

I personally don't mind so much the damage of the Beast Master. It's very high - perhaps overpowered - but I wouldn't be inclined to call for a nerf. It's only when you take into account this kind of damage combined with so much survivability that I believe it rises to level of needing to be nerfed. So take my comments in that context.

I agree with you about cheap crappy AOE mechanics. That's been a failing of this game since the beginning - and is probably one of the big reasons it never reached the pinnacle of MMO success that I believe this game could have.

[Jile]

I understand what you are saying. But t I have seen Beast Master pets out-survive my Paladin in full - damage sets while doing probably 100 times more damage than I would ever be capable of.

So it's just not realistic to imply all a Samurai would have to do is slap on a -DT set and he would instantly have the survivability that a Beast Master does.. I just don't see that happening. This isn't even to mention that equipping a full -DT set would significantly lower the damage output of the Melee DD anyway.

I personally don't mind so much the damage of the Beast Master. It's very high - perhaps overpowered - but I wouldn't be inclined to call for a nerf. It's only when you take into account this kind of damage combined is with so much survivability that I believe it rises to level of needing to be nerfed. So take my comments in that context.

I agree with you about cheap crappy AOE mechanics. That's been a failing of this game since the beginning - and is probably one of the big reasons it never reached the pinnacle of MMO success that I believe this game could have.

BST do not gear for themselves because that's not how SE designed our gear. Unless we want jugs that can't hit, can't hit and do damage, can't take a hit, we have to take ourselves out of the picture completely.

Pet can hit, do decent dmg, take a hit.

Or.

We can hit, can do ok dmg, can take a hit.

Both do not occur at the same time on relevant content.

That is how SE designed BST.

I appreciate that any job capable of burst dmg will take attention of the community and devs. They didn't need to castrate BST in the process of balance.

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All I'm asking SE to do is undo the distance Nerf, in exchange for an aoe-pet tp move dmg decrease.

I'm not excited to lose dmg but I'd much prefer a reasonable nerf on pet aoe dmg than giving up on the one job out of 22 lvl99's I love, being removed from relevant content.

[bazookatooth]

I understand what you are saying. But t I have seen Beast Master pets out-survive my Paladin in full - damage sets while doing probably 100 times more damage than I would ever be capable of.

I have capped emnity gifts and +pet emnity gear in just about every action I do on BST, capped JP and pretty much every desirable piece of gear there is for bst with the exception of Aymur, which I am working on currently. The PLDs in my shell still hold hate about as well as you could hope. PLD isn't supposed to be able to hold hate permanently. Eventually DDs should be able to rip it off if they go all out. Especially if they are fully buffed on some low/mid level content. That's just how the game is designed. I could sneak attack -> rudras a mob at the start of the fight on thf and I guarantee that you won't get hate back until I die if I don't want you to. As for surviving, a good PLD has close to 3k HP in escha. You shouldn't be dieing unless your whm is failing to heal you. Anything that hits you that hard is going to eat through a pet just as fast and they can only be healed every 52 seconds. PLD should be rocking about the same amount of DT- as a bst pet with shell/pro and gear etc. possibly more. Higher HP is the only thing a pet has over PLD.

They could chaqnge the HP of pets and reward timer to be more similar to how a real player gets healed, or they could raise player HP / defense to be more like pets. They probably should have just done a little of both.

So it's just not realistic to imply all a Samurai would have to do is slap on a -DT set and he would instantly have the survivability that a Beast Master does.. I just don't see that happening. This isn't even to mention that equipping a full -DT set would significantly lower the damage output of the Melee DD anyway.

No, they couldn't. They need to use defensive buffs and gear. The buffs are the part that people always forget. They want to just roll with all haste and attack and zerg. Why should a SAM be able to survive like a pet does anyways? Shouldn't there be some downside to pumping out infinite light/dark skillchains?

No they haven't Alhanelem.

Try tanking a high-tier Avatar or some other powerful notorious monster with a dragoon pet and see how far it gets you.

Sure: it might can stay alive - but if you even sneeze on the boss it's going to lose threat and come after you.

No other Pet Job I have see comes even close to what Beast Master is capable of in terms of damage and raw tanking ability. It's not even a contest. Those special pets they have rip hate even off my Paladin. They are enmity machines - not to mention they are hard to kill and do crazy damage to boot.

A BST with capped JP has at minimal +15 emnity before gear which in my case adds like another 15~ish. You'd be hard pressed to find a DD job that wouldn't pull hate eventually in that much +emnity gear.

[Dale]

A BST with capped JP has at minimal +15 emnity before gear which in my case adds like another 15~ish. You'd be hard pressed to find a DD job that wouldn't pull hate eventually in that much +emnity gear.

You are taking my comment of context.

Anyone can take a post - insert it into an entirely different context - then pretend to destroy a point that was never being made. That's what you are doing here.

That post was in reference to other pet jobs which a poster claimed was capable of tanking mobs just as effectively as the Beast Master pets was. That's not the case: and that's what I was disputing.

I was never saying other DD jobs could not compete with a Beast Master for enmity or what ever it is you are trying to say here. What I was saying is that other pets i.e. the wyvern, the puppet etc. do not remotely compare with the Beast Master pets when it comes to enmity generation and tanking ability.

[bazookatooth]

You are taking my comment of context.

Anyone can take a post - insert it into an entirely different context - then pretend to destroy a point that was never being made. That's what you are doing here.

That post was in reference to other pet jobs which a poster claimed was capable of tanking mobs just as effectively as the Beast Master was. That's not the case: and that's what I was disputing.

I was never saying other DD jobs could not compete with a Beast Master for enmity or what ever it is you are trying to say here. What I was saying is that other pets i.e. the wyvern, the puppet etc. do not remotely compare with the Beast Master pets when it comes to enmity generation and tanking ability.

Dragons are not meant to tank, or even deal much damage for that matter. they support the master. Puppets actually tank quite well. Probably better than BST pets. Avatars can't tank well, but they are infinitely renewable and deal huge damage. PLD still tanks better than any pet. You made it sound like BST was OMG OP because it can pull hate off you. Any DD can do that. Whatever your point was, it was lost.