[dev1289] Job Adjustments

[Zeargi]

Ask yourself what's better: Annoying a few people with a nerf to one class and having a better balanced game, or making people giddy by buffing everything else that isn't up to the same bar but potentially breaking the game more in the process.

Except when that nerf never applies to SAM.
I'm all about going outside the box when it comes to strategies, but there's been a few times that SE has been a complete Douche about things, unless it's to SAM. BSTs commands haven't changed for a super long time, but because people aren't 'taking risks,' they are like: 'Nope, can't have that'. Yet they don't blink an eye when SAMs sit back and plink out ranged attacks VS Delve Mobs, even though they're a 'Front Line' job. And further still when THF wants to have access to more Marksmanship WS and higher bolts, they can't for whatever reason, even though they have the Same skill ranking that SAMs do in Archery. Or when all the MNKs H2H got nerfed, etc... I want to see DRK, DRGs, and WARs do more things, but that isn't happening. Often times it isn't the jobs but the CONTENT that's the problem. Mobs with AoEs so huge they still hit you even though you're way outside of even casting range, or Mobs that spam move after move.

[bazookatooth]

Here's the bottom line. BST pets don't do more damage than other jobs. Depending on the target monster, Other jobs like SAM, THF, DNC, BLU, SMN, BLM etc. beat them handily. PLD is still the king of tanks by a million miles on most things bar the occasional magic heavy NM where PLD is still probably just as good as RUN and miles ahead of NIN (Balance needed). BSTs can't heal or buff at all. The one thing BST pets can do better than other jobs, because of their high HP is absorb a lot of damage in a short time (IE. huge AOEs that do like 2,500 damage that would kill the whole front line in one shot). They cannot sustain high damage over time due to them only being capable of healing once a minute. So something that hits quickly and / or for high damage which could be blink tanked by any job /nin and or be continuously healed back by a WHM, would kill a pet due to the length of reward's timer. But they can survive the big nasty one shot AOE moves as long as they don't happen too often. If the paladin dies, the pets generally die quickly afterwards unless the PLD gets back up and grabs hate again (much like PC do). The high HP of the pet is literally the only advantage. By putting the master in range of the same AOE attacks that you were trying to use pets to absorb, you take away the only thing the job has going for it. Another thing that contributes to that problem is the fact that 50% of BSTs pet damage and a large part of the pet's defense come from a few pices of level 75 gear that offer no defensive stats at all for the master. It is literally doing 120-150 content in level 75 -99 gear.

So with that in mind, they could level the playing field by simply raising the HP of Player Characters. It's sorely needed and long over due. NM TP moves have gotten stronger and stronger, but player HP has barely moved. I'm not talking about retooling every weapon skill, Job ability and monster. I'm talking about a couple basic things like HP and defense.

All that's neither here nor there though, because the fact of the matter is there are better ways to do pretty much everything than just throwing BSTs at it and the player base has no one but themselves to blame if that is what's happening. If you read the various "I hate beast master" threads or go to BG, ffxiah etc., You'll see that all the new content is getting smashed by summoners and ,mage parties and many people are doing it just fine with melee groups. This is just the latest in a long line of misplaced nerfs and adjustments that ignore the core problems with the game.

EDIT: Alternatively, they could lower pets HP and the timer on reward, to bring it closer to that of a normal player's functionality. The range thing completely castrates the job.

[kylani]

I'll provide some exmaples where buffs and nerfs are best practice:

Example 1: Job X has Spell or ability Y that is never used in the game because either a bug or poor attributes of the spell/ability render it inferior to other comparable effects e.g. it's useless. Best solution: Buff the useless thing such that it isn't useless. In this case, the thing(s) that are below par are best upgraded to be meet the expected performance standard.
Example 2: Job X has spell or ability Y that is being used more than anything else in the game because it trivializes an encounter or has unintended effects due to a bug or issue. Solution: Fix the issue or nerf the effect such that

In-context hypothetical example. Suppose people find out that an alliance of black mages can kill anything in the game in one go with three meteors, no other job can do it. Do we 1) Buff every other job such that an alliance of them can instakill a boss? or do we 2) Adjust Meteor so it is in line with the intended parameters? Consider the repercussions of each. If every boss fight becomes trivial by stacking 18 of one job, the game would become boring very quickly and people would quit. If Meteor was nerfed, some black mages would be upset but everybody would be having more fun overall.

Conclusion: Buffing isn't always the best policy.

Ask yourself if there is anything about what is being changed on BST that fits in either of these categories (Because I honestly don't know as I'm not a BST)

I don't feel that this is the situation with BST here. It's been proven that other jobs can do the content, and can do it better and faster without BST. The BST strat seems to have been the initial strat to beat the content, so as usual, the player base adopted that as the official 'cookie' cutter strat to start with. From what I've heard from friends, DDs have been frustrated in general by this, and it seems like BST has gotten caught in the cross fire, but my friends enjoy figuring out content vs. following the pack, so they don't seem typical (I always appreciated my friends, but never more than lately).

If this were the case here, using your BLM example, there are other things that could be done rather than insisting BLMs nuke from close range. SE has adjusted resistances to damage in the past, among other things.

[Alhanelem]

I don't feel that this is the situation with BST here.

In case I somehow didn't make that clear before, I'm not saying that it is. I'm only saying that anytime something that gets seen as a nerf comes up, it's basically obligatory that people will come in and say "instead of nerfing this, buff everything else!"

Again, I know little of BST or even why this change was made, I'm merely commenting on the inevitable clamor for buffs over nerfs. The fact is sometimes one is appropriate, and sometimes the other is appropriate. I just get the impression that some people don't realize you can't just buff everything that isn't the best.

The only comment I can make about BST itself in regards to this issue is that I'm not really certain what the change is supposed to accomplish. The way it reads almost sounds like its intent was just to annoy people.

[kylani]

In case I somehow didn't make that clear before, I'm not saying that it is. I'm only saying that anytime something that gets seen as a nerf comes up, it's basically obligatory that people will come in and say "instead of nerfing this, buff everything else!"

Again, I know little of BST or even why this change was made, I'm merely commenting on the inevitable clamor for buffs over nerfs. The fact is sometimes one is appropriate, and sometimes the other is appropriate. I just get the impression that some people don't realize you can't just buff everything that isn't the best.

The only comment I can make about BST itself in regards to this issue is that I'm not really certain what the change is supposed to accomplish. The way it reads almost sounds like its intent was just to annoy people.

I thought you were clear, and I liked how you made this a more general balance discussion vs. attacking any job. I started to weigh in with the discussion on balancing generally, but to be honest, with the wide range that Job Points adds, I find balancing hard to discuss, especially in a forum (even on skype with friends it's hard to pin down). So I answered with how I feel about BST in this situation since you said you didn't know about BST. It's not like they suddenly gave BST range. Range is the way we've fought harder content for as long as I can remember, even back to the charming days, when we scrambled like crazy charming mobs to throw at NMs. I guess the reason this annoys me so much is I do almost feel like it was just purely BST hate, not any real sense of balancing the content out.

For me, the only answer I feel comfortable with on balance is, forget what other jobs can do, can I get together with friends and get stuff done with the jobs we enjoy playing, even if it takes some trial and error to figure out.

[bazookatooth]

The only comment I can make about BST itself in regards to this issue is that I'm not really certain what the change is supposed to accomplish. The way it reads almost sounds like its intent was just to annoy people.

Basically a bunch of people were mad that people were using BST in places where they usually would use SAM and they complained until SE decided to do something about it. So SE came up with a change that will make it so that NO ONE wants to use BST for anything. It didn't balance anything. It just made a bunch of haters happy and a bunch of other people pissed off. The funniest part about this is that it won't help front line jobs like SAM at all because RNG, SMN, BLM SCH and GEO still do better damage from a safe distance and no one wants to get near NMs these days. SE didn't look at WHY people are using BST at all. They just shot the messenger.

[Bizniztyme]

Basically a bunch of people were mad that people were using BST in places where they usually would use SAM and they complained until SE decided to do something about it. So SE came up with a change that will make it so that NO ONE wants to use BST for anything. It didn't balance anything. It just made a bunch of haters happy and a bunch of other people pissed off. The funniest part about this is that it won't help front line jobs like SAM at all because RNG, SMN, BLM SCH and GEO still do better damage from a safe distance and no one wants to get near NMs these days. SE didn't look at WHY people are using BST at all. They just shot the messenger.

I don't like the change as much as anyone else but you folks are taking it way out of proportion. All this change does is separate the good BST players from the weak ones. Timing will be everything when it comes to this change, Instead of just standing in one spot and throwing mulsims and rewards and using JA's, you actually have to move. The good BST players will adapt, the ones that can't handle it? You might as well play different job. That will be me. I might just jump to ranger LOL

[bazookatooth]

I'd hardly say that running in and out makes you good. It just makes things annoying. The only pet you can do that with and still put out anywhere near decent damage is the cricket. Any other pet and your'e going to have to stay in range as animation delay and a short ready timer won't allow you to run out.

[Olor]

I don't like the change as much as anyone else but you folks are taking it way out of proportion. All this change does is separate the good BST players from the weak ones. Timing will be everything when it comes to this change, Instead of just standing in one spot and throwing mulsims and rewards and using JA's, you actually have to move. The good BST players will adapt, the ones that can't handle it? You might as well play different job. That will be me. I might just jump to ranger LOL

This is nonsense. With needing to use timers every 10 or less seconds, you can't possibly move in and out of range in any sensible way. BST is dead with this change. There will be not be a single event where it is useful.

[Kensagaku]

Well I wouldn't say that it's -entirely- useless, but we took a major hit for sure. We might have to stagger our Ready time a bit and hold back when we suspect a TP move is coming, or stay in melee and cycle pets out on our timers, but we can still do -something-. Still, it's a nerf that's going to hit us hard regardless of how we can adapt to it.