[dev1289] Job Adjustments

[Elexia]

I wonder why noone mentions RDM when it comes to D/VD solo fights. But it doesn't matter because i think it's proven that other jobs can solo the same difficulty, probably even more and better than BST.
It's not a problem anyway, most relevant content can't be solo'd, it needs 3 Person in party to start it. Soloing is more a way to test the own skills than getting drops.

RDM has been a soloer since the early days, but it was designed to be versatile..and it actually needed adjustments to be caught up. RDM is powerful but you didn't see a mass shift towards RDM like you did BST for a specific reason. It's not better what BST were doing, nowhere near - you even need more as RDM to do what a 'typical' BST could do. As said, it's not a problem that BST got powerful..it's the circumstances around it that drew attention. They wouldn't have developed the magic resistance patch (every real mage from back in the day knows this well) or develop ToAU around the brunt of the content being less mage friendly progression wise (i.e leveling wise.)

(It needs x people to start it!)

Anyone who's been playing XI for any length of time knows people run additional characters themselves to start content, whether you should or not. So the whole solo thing isn't a problem, people wouldn't be going to BST or wanting BST parties only for stuff if things were "fine" you know?

As much as people are trying to drag Samurai into this, outta saltiness:

The initial 2 handed patch allowed Samurais to deal insane damage while naked. Guess how fast they reverted that patch even though it only affected SE's lovechild?

[bazookatooth]

RDM has been a soloer since the early days, but it was designed to be versatile..and it actually needed adjustments to be caught up. RDM is powerful but you didn't see a mass shift towards RDM like you did BST for a specific reason. It's not better what BST were doing, nowhere near - you even need more as RDM to do what a 'typical' BST could do. As said, it's not a problem that BST got powerful..it's the circumstances around it that drew attention. They wouldn't have developed the magic resistance patch (every real mage from back in the day knows this well) or develop ToAU around the brunt of the content being less mage friendly progression wise (i.e leveling wise.)

(It needs x people to start it!)

Anyone who's been playing XI for any length of time knows people run additional characters themselves to start content, whether you should or not. So the whole solo thing isn't a problem, people wouldn't be going to BST or wanting BST parties only for stuff if things were "fine" you know?

As much as people are trying to drag Samurai into this, outta saltiness:

The initial 2 handed patch allowed Samurais to deal insane damage while naked. Guess how fast they reverted that patch even though it only affected SE's lovechild?

Ermm... Sam still does crazy damage via skill chains. And I played BLM throughout ToaU without a problem. What did I have to change jobs for? Salvage and...

[Dale]

A BST with capped JP has at minimal +15 emnity before gear which in my case adds like another 15~ish. You'd be hard pressed to find a DD job that wouldn't pull hate eventually in that much +emnity gear.

You are taking my comment of context.

Anyone can take a post - insert it into an entirely different context - then pretend to destroy a point that was never being made. That's what you are doing here.

That post was in reference to other pet jobs which a poster claimed was capable of tanking mobs just as effectively as the Beast Master pets was. That's not the case: and that's what I was disputing.

I was never saying other DD jobs could not compete with a Beast Master for enmity or what ever it is you are trying to say here. What I was saying is that other pets i.e. the wyvern, the puppet etc. do not remotely compare with the Beast Master pets when it comes to enmity generation and tanking ability.

[Dale]

I'm speaking in general terms about content across the entirety of the game over the years, not just what people do this very moment. Also, the valoredge puppet properly configured can actually tank a lot of stuff (having 100 or 1200 JP makes it really effective as well). BST might be the best at it, but the other pet jobs have kited or tanked all kinds of NMs and content throughout FFXI's history. Have you never heard of summoner burns? When WoE was new (and pretty much even to this day), many of the first clears were all or mostly summoners throwing pets at it- Although summons won't survive as long as BST pets, they also can be resummoned quickly and immediately. I've pet tanked a variety of NMs over the years on SMN. It's not a new concept and it's not exclusive to BST.

Enmity can be managed on the other pet jobs, so I'm not even considering that a factor in this.

Most of your post is smoke and mirrors.

I never said pet tanking is a new concept. I never said other pet jobs have never kited or tanked NMs through-out FF XI's history.

You made the claim that all other pet jobs were capable of doing what Beast Masters can. That's just not the case. Nothing in your post has convinced me otherwise. You even seem to admit the Beast Master is the best at it (which was my point). So to be honest with you I'm not even sure what it is we are debating at this point.

[Dale]

All you complainers about how BST has to get close... here you go of a BST soloing very difficult ark angel mithra:

There are more if this one example isn't enough. The distance nerf wasn't enough. Pets shouldn't be able to not only tank as well as a PLD but do damage as well as a DD against very difficult NMs while the master just sits there doing job emotes laughing all the way. Pets should be able to tank OR do damage, not both. That is what needs to be fixed.

I agree with you. They probably do also when they are honest with themselves. But once you get used to power it's hard to let go of - and a lot of them are probably in self-denial and refusing to admit it to themselves because they and understandably so were enjoying being an entire party all unto themselves.

[Dale]

There are several jobs which can do both, which makes them able to solo even hardest NMs. Bst is by far not alone there. All of them are already balanced, Bst is too.
I understand you don't like Bst, it makes your Brd unwanted, which is not ok.
But that Bst only hype is caused by the player community, not by the job itsself. It became good, yes. But not so OP as people think it is.
The real performance gap you find in gear and jobpoints and if player using different equipsets.
SE knows this, that's why they were a bit shy and did not nerf dmg output.

I have never seen another job that compares to what those Beast Master pets can do in terms of damage and defense.

I've seen Beast Masters in mediocre gear and not many job points summon that cricket and obliterate notorious monsters in seconds what the rest of the group was struggling to kill.

There is a reason so many people think Beast Master was OP (basically everyone who does not play one). It's because they have seen it with their own eyes. It's not just hype.

[bazookatooth]

You are taking my comment of context.

Anyone can take a post - insert it into an entirely different context - then pretend to destroy a point that was never being made. That's what you are doing here.

That post was in reference to other pet jobs which a poster claimed was capable of tanking mobs just as effectively as the Beast Master was. That's not the case: and that's what I was disputing.

I was never saying other DD jobs could not compete with a Beast Master for enmity or what ever it is you are trying to say here. What I was saying is that other pets i.e. the wyvern, the puppet etc. do not remotely compare with the Beast Master pets when it comes to enmity generation and tanking ability.

Dragons are not meant to tank, or even deal much damage for that matter. they support the master. Puppets actually tank quite well. Probably better than BST pets. Avatars can't tank well, but they are infinitely renewable and deal huge damage. PLD still tanks better than any pet. You made it sound like BST was OMG OP because it can pull hate off you. Any DD can do that. Whatever your point was, it was lost.

[Olor]

I've seen Beast Masters in mediocre gear and not many job points summon that cricket and obliterate notorious monsters in seconds what the rest of the group was struggling to kill.

What notorious monster is this? Please do tell cause I can't think of a single relevant/modern NM I can kill solo that would be difficult for most other jobs to solo...

[Dale]

Dragons are not meant to tank, or even deal much damage for that matter. they support the master. Puppets actually tank quite well. Probably better than BST pets. Avatars can't tank well, but they are infinitely renewable and deal huge damage. PLD still tanks better than any pet. You made it sound like BST was OMG OP because it can pull hate off you. Any DD can do that. Whatever your point was, it was lost.

No it's your point that is lost actually.

You can't say all other pet jobs can tank just as well as the Beast Master (which is what the post I was responding to said) then try to counter my post by admitting they can't because they weren't designed to.

What ever you feel the other pet jobs are designed to do isn't the issue. My point - which you just ceded - is that the other pets do not come close to competing with the enmity generation of the Beast Master pets.

So not only was my point not lost - but you actually reinforced it for me. Thank you.

[Dale]

What notorious monster is this? Please do tell cause I can't think of a single relevant/modern NM I can kill solo that would be difficult for most other jobs to solo...

You are living in a fantasy world Olor if you think most other jobs can easily solo all the relevant notorious monsters the Beast Master was capable of. When you make comments like this: it makes it impossible for me to take you seriously.

Just take your pick - any of the normal, difficult, very difficult higher-tier battlefields which the Beast Master could easily solo. I watched a Beast Master cut through skirmish notorious monsters like water - the same one that was dropping meteors and one-shotting the rest of the party. I watch them eat normal and difficult avatars for breakfast - where as I have to equip all - mdt and sub /rune to barely survive their hits on very easy.

So if you are actually going to stand there and say to me that the Beast Master was not better at solo than most other jobs then you have just lost all credibility with me on this subject.