[dev1289] Job Adjustments

[Singforu]

I fail to see the point in including a job in the game if it can't be put to good use throughout the game. As much fun as it is to mess around, that's no justification to keep a job functionally inferior. As much fun as I had playing and soloing on PUP, I wanted more than anything for it to be usable (which it wasn't for the longest time).

So your sarcasm and snarkiness isn't appriciated. I should be able to use any job and be useful in content, not just WHM and WAR and (insert mainstream job here). I shouldn't be FORCED to press the Change Job button, I should be pressing it because I want to play that job and not because I have to.

I went through all of the last 12 years finding ways to beat content with the jobs I enjoyed the most. I had no problem doing this, inspite of all the people insisting that you must be XYZ job to be useful (which IMO is bad game design). I beat most of CoP on SMN inspite of the alleged "uselessness" and the crap I got for playing a mage job as a Galka was unbelieveable. But I did it anyway, and we had fun, and in the end it didn't really matter. So to hell with conformity.

This is ridiculous. All jobs are useful to a point (some NMs have certain resistances/immunities). Each job has it's strengths and weaknesses. You have to use a variety of jobs to complete content.... 18x WAR is not going to cut it. You should not be whining that you should be entitled to come whatever you want. If you only have one or two jobs, then you aren't being flexible enough and if you attend the event in that state you are just leeching and hurting the group. Yes there is usually more than one way to complete content, but if your group is 17/18 and has no WHM, guess what... you need to pony up and go WHM. The leader of your group should be looking at the strengths of each of the players. If you're a yagrush WHM and your DD isn't as good as the other DDs.... don't complain if you get chosen to come WHM.

[Zeargi]

That's why I said add charmable mobs, but I agree it's not practical. I just miss charm.

But it even becomes less practical when in arenas and other places that have nothing for BSTs. I said it once, and I'll say it again. BST was fine, it was the content that's the problem. You can't except people to stand next to a SMN mob or even another BST job. Why would anyone stand anywhere close to a mob that has a super AoE Doom, Amnesia, Mute, Weaken TP move. I get it that it's designed to be a challenge, but there's a fine line between balance and poor design. WHM, SCH, and SMN all have restorative moves, but none to remove Mute, Weaken, or Amnesia. Even RDM and WHM's Bar-spells verse that barely keep the effect short enough. A PLD that can't provoke when the mob runs wild is deadly, even more so when said thing decides to cast some other AoE TP move or Fast Cast -ja spells. If SE wants people to 'take more risks', then they need to give the tools to do so! BST has to choose on which to survive, but also has the problem of that if they become inflicted with Amnesia that can't do anything for their pets. PLDs that can't WS, JA, or cast spell are useless. I mean look at NIN, they were completely cast out of things because of all the AoE stuff, but looking back you can see how SE intended the job to be played by watching the AI of the mobs. They stood at a distance casting Ninjutsu and throwing shurikens, but as the players used it, it became a Tanking job and SE added tools to help it fill that role. Give people the means to survive and take those chances, and most people will. Not everyone wants to spend 4 hours shouting for XYZ jobs... *Drops mic* I'm out!

[kylani]

But it even becomes less practical when in arenas and other places that have nothing for BSTs. I said it once, and I'll say it again. BST was fine, it was the content that's the problem. You can't except people to stand next to a SMN mob or even another BST job. Why would anyone stand anywhere close to a mob that has a super AoE Doom, Amnesia, Mute, Weaken TP move. I get it that it's designed to be a challenge, but there's a fine line between balance and poor design. WHM, SCH, and SMN all have restorative moves, but none to remove Mute, Weaken, or Amnesia. Even RDM and WHM's Bar-spells verse that barely keep the effect short enough. A PLD that can't provoke when the mob runs wild is deadly, even more so when said thing decides to cast some other AoE TP move or Fast Cast -ja spells. If SE wants people to 'take more risks', then they need to give the tools to do so! BST has to choose on which to survive, but also has the problem of that if they become inflicted with Amnesia that can't do anything for their pets. PLDs that can't WS, JA, or cast spell are useless. I mean look at NIN, they were completely cast out of things because of all the AoE stuff, but looking back you can see how SE intended the job to be played by watching the AI of the mobs. They stood at a distance casting Ninjutsu and throwing shurikens, but as the players used it, it became a Tanking job and SE added tools to help it fill that role. Give people the means to survive and take those chances, and most people will. Not everyone wants to spend 4 hours shouting for XYZ jobs... *Drops mic* I'm out!

That is pretty much what I heard from friends. They didn't say BST was OP, just better for the content, and they are managing fine without a BST. Course my friends are skillful players with excellent gear and probably max jp by now. I don't do current end game, so it's hard for me to judge the OP part. I know mine is not OP, but I only have a hundred+ job points and a decent combination of 119 gear, and I'll never have mad skills. I have noticed the improvement as I have gotten job points and better gear, but I can still die quick enough if I'm not careful, or even if I am, lol. I was hardly standing there eating popcorn while my pet fights with the content I was doing.

I don't think people should be required to have max everything to participate in end game. You shouldn't have to rely purely on gimmicks of a few lucky jobs, and people shouldn't be forced to play a job they don't like just to get end game gear. For this content, there are a lot of better answers than this 5 yalm range nerf. It makes no sense.

[bazookatooth]

This is ridiculous. All jobs are useful to a point (some NMs have certain resistances/immunities). Each job has it's strengths and weaknesses. You have to use a variety of jobs to complete content.... 18x WAR is not going to cut it. You should not be whining that you should be entitled to come whatever you want. If you only have one or two jobs, then you aren't being flexible enough and if you attend the event in that state you are just leeching and hurting the group. Yes there is usually more than one way to complete content, but if your group is 17/18 and has no WHM, guess what... you need to pony up and go WHM. The leader of your group should be looking at the strengths of each of the players. If you're a yagrush WHM and your DD isn't as good as the other DDs.... don't complain if you get chosen to come WHM.

That's not at all what he's saying and you know it. There is a big difference between "We need you to come on white mage because we have no healer..." and "We need you to come on some other job because your favorite job just sucks.".

[Alhanelem]

This is ridiculous. All jobs are useful to a point

It's not ridiculous. Most jobs are quite usable now and it's rare that you entirely can't use one in any given content. But it wasn't always that way, and just because something is possible, doesn't mean people are willing to accept it.

Also, what bazooka said.

Personally, while I don't just play one job, I do prefer to earn my gear and stuff on the job that I intend to use it with. e.g. I'd rather earn SMN stuff by playing SMN, SCH stuff by playing SCH, etc.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I personally think they should have adjusted the pets HP and reward timers so that it was more similar to a normal player. Ie giving the pets like 3k hp instead of 5-6k and reducing the reward timer to like 30 seconds. That way pets wouldn't be able to survive high damage AOE moves too much better than normal characters, pet foods other than theta would serve a purpose again and people wouldn't be able to tank things nearly as well with a pet. They should also give front line DDs a native resistance to AOE damage, so that they still have to use DT- sets when they pull hate, but don't get raped just for showing up.

Then they'd need to reduce Call Beast timer by some margin, HP, isn't the problem. TBH I'm not sure what they could do to BST without it impacting them massively.

[Dale]

Dale, when you have a DD who has hundreds of millions of gil in gear, and a COR buffing their ACC/ATT, they are gonna do a shit ton of damage.

I don't think it is unreasonable that a BST who has spent 100/+ million gil on multiple gear sets, receiving BST-specific buffs, should outdamage someone's fudo SAM that's in unaugmented skirmish armor with an unaugmented nene.

BST was not the issue here. BST was fine for years. BST did not change. The content changed, and then BST became a problem. Ergo, it is the content's fault, or, more directly, the community. There are things that work a lot better in a lot of situations than BST BST BST BST BST COR. However, BST BST BST BST BST COR requires virtually no coordination or teamwork compared to other things to make it work. I honestly think that's what made it so popular.

As to people doing BST because pets, with their high HP relative to players, can survive high damage AoE: Most DDs refuse to wear any -DT gear. When I go to things with PUGs I frequently see people who "outdamage" me do far, far, far less damage because the TP move that hit them for 1700 damage while they weren't topped off only did 850 to me. People who focus purely on theoretical damage output without any thought to survivability are a large part of the reason why BST was so heavily used as they were.

The problem with your post Machini is that Beast Master did change. So your post extends from a false premise.

What changed is that SE gave Beast Masters access to insanely powerful pets who have both massive damage and survivability. That is also why you saw the job's role change: which was almost exclusively a niche solo job before: then changed into a preferred method for dealing with endgame content. This is why you saw the Beast Master population begin to change as well, from very few to so many. So to suggest Beast Masters didn't change - it was the content that did - just isn't dealing with the reality.

This game has always had content that puts melee DPS at a disadvantage. It's been a fair and consistent criticism of this game since it's inception: and is the primary reason so many jobs get left out in the cold. So that is nothing new about this game. It's something melee jobs have been dealing with for well over a decade on FFXI.

As far as wearing -DT gear... that sounds easy enough in theory. But it's not so easy to deck your character out in a lot of -DT gear and still maintain a healthy offense capable of consistently hitting and doing damage to the notorious monster. So either way you look at: melee DPS are put at a significant disadvantage. It's not just because players are stubborn and refuse to adapt. It's because the game's design itself makes it hard for them.

[Olor]

That's not at all what he's saying and you know it. There is a big difference between "We need you to come on white mage because we have no healer..." and "We need you to come on some other job because your favorite job just sucks.".

And this is where BST was for years. And everytime it's ever gotten good enough to be useable in content it gets nerfed.

"BST soloing exp is hard but cool" - NERFT
"BST is OK at dynamis farming" - NERFT
"BST is good in one or two group events" - NERFT

etc etc

[Elexia]

And this is where BST was for years. And everytime it's ever gotten good enough to be useable in content it gets nerfed.

"BST soloing exp is hard but cool" - NERFT
"BST is OK at dynamis farming" - NERFT
"BST is good in one or two group events" - NERFT

etc etc

BST soloing for exp was never nerfed unless you mean the switch to Abyssea where the outside world was pretty useless in comparison to level?
BST only had a tiny form of TH (like BLU) unless they went /thf, pretty sure they can still farm dynamis if they want to.
BST is good in one or two group events - "/shout BST PARTIES ONLY PLZ TY." < this is what brought the attention.

You know what's good in group events? WHMs. Guess by that logic WHM is next to be nerfed, eh?

[Arthos]

/shout BST PARTIES ONLY PLZ TY." < this is what brought the attention.

BST in party only works this way, thanks to the supportjob design. This is intended by SE, and not BST player's fault.

Can also do other setups, it doesnt matter much if you fight a T1 Escha NM with BST x 3, or a setup which consists of PLD/RDM/DD.
The second setup has one problem: Each member has to be good. The BST setup needs only one good player, which makes it very PUG friendly.