[dev1289] Job Adjustments

[Alhanelem]

Charm was a super-powerful ability, and unique to BST

The biggest problem with charm is that really you just couldn't use it in some places. BST could only be effective in the open world and was virtually useless in 99% of BC fights, which didn't allow anything to be charmed in 99% of cases because charm would trivialize the fight (what easier way to win than to make each of the mobs in a BC fight attack each other?). It also depended on an area having mobs of types that make sense to be charmable. The shift in focus to jug pets was most likely more meant to allow BST to be useable everywhere instead of only here and there. You say people didn't care if they didn't get invited to events, but you're kidding yourself if you don't think people would have enjoyed their favorite job more if they could use it to get things done instead of it being more a novelty (or troll, in some cases in the early days ).

As fun as it was, to have the whole job revolve around charm was not really the best decision from a good game design perspective. Competing for charmable targets was common in the early days. There were lots of problems because of this. It wasn't a sustainable design, as any time BSTs got near eachother or other parties there was inevitable disputes, which typically ended with one MPKing the other person or party.

Also the "stat vomit" or whatever you ant to call it has absolutely nothing to do with this "job soup" thing you're talking about. It exists purely to scale us to being pseudo-level 119. it by itself does nothing to make jobs more or less similar.

[Alhanelem]

On the "being invited to events" subject, I used to bang my head against the wall over this, until one day in my Moghouse, I discovered a button marked "Change Jobs" and my life was never the same again! I could do events on WHM and WAR, and then roam the wilderness on my BST, using Charm.

I fail to see the point in including a job in the game if it can't be put to good use throughout the game. As much fun as it is to mess around, that's no justification to keep a job functionally inferior. As much fun as I had playing and soloing on PUP, I wanted more than anything for it to be usable (which it wasn't for the longest time).

So your sarcasm and snarkiness isn't appriciated. I should be able to use any job and be useful in content, not just WHM and WAR and (insert mainstream job here). I shouldn't be FORCED to press the Change Job button, I should be pressing it because I want to play that job and not because I have to.

I went through all of the last 12 years finding ways to beat content with the jobs I enjoyed the most. I had no problem doing this, inspite of all the people insisting that you must be XYZ job to be useful (which IMO is bad game design). I beat most of CoP on SMN inspite of the alleged "uselessness" and the crap I got for playing a mage job as a Galka was unbelieveable. But I did it anyway, and we had fun, and in the end it didn't really matter. So to hell with conformity.

[kylani]

The biggest problem with charm is that really you just couldn't use it in some places. BST could only be effective in the open world and was virtually useless in 99% of BC fights, which didn't allow anything to be charmed in 99% of cases because charm would trivialize the fight (what easier way to win than to make each of the mobs in a BC fight attack each other?). It also depended on an area having mobs of types that make sense to be charmable. The shift in focus to jug pets was most likely more meant to allow BST to be useable everywhere instead of only here and there. You say people didn't care if they didn't get invited to events, but you're kidding yourself if you don't think people would have enjoyed their favorite job more if they could use it to get things done instead of it being more a novelty (or troll, in some cases in the early days ).

As fun as it was, to have the whole job revolve around charm was not really the best decision from a good game design perspective. Competing for charmable targets was common in the early days. There were lots of problems because of this. It wasn't a sustainable design, as any time BSTs got near eachother or other parties there was inevitable disputes, which typically ended with one MPKing the other person or party.

Also the "stat vomit" or whatever you ant to call it has absolutely nothing to do with this "job soup" thing you're talking about. It exists purely to scale us to being pseudo-level 119. it by itself does nothing to make jobs more or less similar.

BST was actually a pretty friendly BCNM job even though jugs were very weak by today's standards. Back then, it wasn't as easy to level multiple jobs, so I think people worked harder at figuring out different ways to do content than they do today.

My experiences with parties were that they would show up at my out of the way camp, and I'd move to another area or log to craft till they were done. I did not camp at the normal party spots, and I put up a search comment so other BSTs would know what I was exping on. More often than not, another BST would ask to duo if the camp was suited for it, and we both got better exp. If a party were at a camp, the last thing I wanted to do was camp near them and have them killing pets that I needed to charm.

To me, parties were much more unfriendly than BSTs. Finding camp spots was a pain back in those days, so I understood how a party felt if they were trying to find somewhere to exp and another party or a BST was there. As BST, I had no problem relocating or logging for a bit, but some parties assumed the worst till we talked. Parties got just as upset with other parties and could be pretty intense. I don't think BSTs were any more malicious or any nicer than other jobs. I had far more stressful experiences in parties when leaders fought over camps. I hated it when our parties were fighting over mobs, and it was frustrating how many parties would camp on top of another, and then bring in a PL, etc. BST was pretty stress free. I know BSTs who did MPK when they felt they were wronged, but I also knew plenty of non-BST folks who liked to cause bedlam by training onto parties. People are just different. BSTs could also be very helpful. I duod in Crawlers Nest a lot, and we'd often get tells to help clear trains at the door. We liked pulling the mobs away so parties could get going again. I wonder if my server was very different than most. I never felt the hatred towards BST that I feel today.

End game was very different for BST though. BST was unsuitable in most cases, so I went on RDM initially, then BRD and BLM. I never minded doing end game on a job other than BST. I loved dynamis. I enjoyed Sky less, but that was due to the fighting over the Gods, not the job they asked me to play. Abyssea was great fun because I could duo with a PUP. I did mind when it came to skirmish and delve, and by then, jugs had become the BST staple. Jugs were incredibly weak and inaccurate though, so it mostly bugged me that a tier 1 blm nuke did so much damage and my pet could barely even hit, much less do much damage in Adoulin, so I couldn't run around on my own as BST much at all to support my BST habit.

I have mixed feelings about the gear. I liked AF, Relic, Empyrean that was specific to the job even though it is nice being able to use gear for more than one job now that we have so many jobs. I'd rather have gear more specific to me and my pet, than stat vomit basics, with augments where I have to pick between me and my pet on every piece.

[Alhanelem]

But that would also mean making all jobs more uniform and similar.

No, it doesn't mean this at all. That's the *easiest* method to achieve balance, but not the only way.

My old LS pretty much forced me to level RDM and BRD, I hated the idea, but I levelled those jobs to be used in events.

I joined linkshells that needed the jobs I had to offer and by so doing was able to play what I enjoyed while still being a contributor. If I had to level up a job as a condition to join or stay in an LS, I would simply leave it.

See, there were many ways to play this game. You were able to be a jack of trades, like you describe, or you could specialize and focus on a few. Neither way was wrong.

[kylani]

I fail to see the point in including a job in the game if it can't be put to good use throughout the game. As much fun as it is to mess around, that's no justification to keep a job functionally inferior. As much fun as I had playing and soloing on PUP, I wanted more than anything for it to be usable (which it wasn't for the longest time).

So your sarcasm and snarkiness isn't appriciated. I should be able to use any job and be useful in content, not just WHM and WAR and (insert mainstream job here). I shouldn't be FORCED to press the Change Job button, I should be pressing it because I want to play that job and not because I have to.

I went through all of the last 12 years finding ways to beat content with the jobs I enjoyed the most. I had no problem doing this, inspite of all the people insisting that you must be XYZ job to be useful (which IMO is bad game design). I beat most of CoP on SMN inspite of the alleged "uselessness" and the crap I got for playing a mage job as a Galka was unbelieveable. But I did it anyway, and we had fun, and in the end it didn't really matter. So to hell with conformity.

I agree with both you and Stompa on this. I was more like Stompa, in that I enjoyed the other jobs too. I know people who absolutely hated that they couldn't do end game on their main. Our dynamis leader would allow BSTs and PUPs to go. BST wasn't good for dynamis, so I preferred to go as another job, but I really never understood why people were so anti-Pup. I know Pup has evolved over time, but even back then, it seemed like a very useful versatile job. A good pup was a joy to watch.

People are different. All people should be able to enjoy their jobs.

[kylani]

So maybe SE are right that BST needed to be rebalanced somehow, I just think that the pet command range may have taken the fun rather than the Op out of BST.

I love this line. That sums up how I feel.

I kinda wish SE had put charmable non-aggroing pets in end game and weakened jugs again (non aggroing for the non-BSTs, not to make it easy on BST). That would probably be a hot mess, but I'd have to re-sub if they did just to try, lol.

I doubt most end game groups would want to take a BST with a pet that could un-charm and turn on you. It would add too much chaotic fun to the cookie cutter world.

[Alhanelem]

So maybe SE are right that BST needed to be rebalanced somehow, I just think that the pet command range may have taken the fun rather than the Op out of BST.

That's pretty much what it did, by all accounts I've heard. It's still OP, the only thing that was nerfed was the fun factor.

[Alhanelem]

You can't really weaken jugs (too much) because in non-open world content you don't have a choice.

[bazookatooth]

I personally think they should have adjusted the pets HP and reward timers so that it was more similar to a normal player. Ie giving the pets like 3k hp instead of 5-6k and reducing the reward timer to like 30 seconds. That way pets wouldn't be able to survive high damage AOE moves too much better than normal characters, pet foods other than theta would serve a purpose again and people wouldn't be able to tank things nearly as well with a pet. They should also give front line DDs a native resistance to AOE damage, so that they still have to use DT- sets when they pull hate, but don't get raped just for showing up.

[kylani]

You can't really weaken jugs (too much) because in non-open world content you don't have a choice.

That's why I said add charmable mobs, but I agree it's not practical. I just miss charm.