[dev1289] Job Adjustments

[detlef]

Really? Please do show me an event where a BST never ever failed, not once.

I don't think we can even have a discussion if that's your definition of success and overpowered. BST could provide the closest thing to safe, guaranteed success as is possible in this game which is played by humans. Hey, I liked it. I enjoyed PTing with BSTs and reaped some benefits from it. But it was overpowered.

Continue to argue about the overkill of the adjustment if you like, I think that's a valid concern I share.

[kylani]

Overpowered has become a pronoun to me. I don't know how you say 'any job' = overpowered when there is so much range in play style, merits, and particularly jp.

Are ALL BSTs overpowered or just BSTs with maxed everything? Do people who judge know all the factors between the melee and BST they are judging? Believe it or not, there are people playing the game who don't have maxed everything, and don't necessarily even want maxed everything. I have melee friends who laugh at the idea that a maxed BST pet can out damage them. BST does get an edge that they can stay out of the AOE, but the trade off is BST kills slower. The way the jobs are geared can make quite a difference between the gap.

I agree that a maxed pet shouldn't be as good as maxed melee, and if that is true, I agree damage should be nerfed. (I don't know because I am not maxed with none of the best gear). I do know this range is ridiculous. I should be able to trigger commands when I am fighting with my pet.

It seems this game has become too elitist. There is so much to do here, such rich story, but all that seems to matter is that Person A's job is better than Person B's.

[detlef]

I maintain it never should have been about putting a jug pet side by set with a decked out melee and comparing results. The damage was impressive a lot of the time for sure. But what really put BST on another level was how you could skimp on healing and support while having a high success rate. That's really what separated them from melee, which are generally high maintenance in comparison. If you had a choice wouldn't you bring a BST every time?

[Ataraxia]

Being able to do so in a way you guarantee success with absolutely no risk is OP. Don't get me wrong though, this was NOT the way to go about fixing that.

It seem like your someone who hasn't been playing FFXI for a long time and have not explore all the job carefully. Did you know that Ranger and Blm are safe job? They have always been like that for a very long time. BST was the same way for the past 12 years. With current September update SMN is now a safe job with that boost to range.



Here are links i like to share with everyone and Akihiro Matsui.

FFXI Yorcia Weald Delve 1-5 + Boss (4 people) March 14, 2015. Amazing Video but BST can't do 99,999 dmg like SMN. clear time is 12 minute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvqyMyZM1qY


FFXI Incursion Level 135 Vanquisher Gramk-Droog March 28, 2014. Bard and SMN can keep any DD from getting one shot with Sentinel's Scherzo and Earthen Armor. If that had been BST pet even if you're well gear it probably take tons of damage, be difficult to keep it alive with reward, and die.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXnD9w8XDz0



I save the best for last. FFXI - SCH Kamihr Delve Solo (1-5 + Utkux) May 11, 2015. 37 minute clear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UQwlVQ-M8c

This very same person Mischief17 can solo all Delve zone 1-5 + Boss without trust. The toughest zone is Kamihr Delve and for him to solo it was amazing Taru and very skilled. People should respect all Taru because they aren't a Joke. Dev Team should hire these people because they slow everyone the way to play FFXI to it's fullest.




Now ask yourself a question can BST do this solo? HELL NO! If they can than i like to see some evidence videos. All job do amazing things when you got a Cor, Brd, Geo, Rdm around to help. I do not like to see any Nerf to any more job but I like to see other job improve and close the cap to be good in a unique way. Make sure you go earn your 1200 job points stop hating and show BST some love and learn how to play your job. =)

[kylani]

I maintain it never should have been about putting a jug pet side by set with a decked out melee and comparing results. The damage was impressive a lot of the time for sure. But what really put BST on another level was how you could skimp on healing and support while having a high success rate. That's really what separated them from melee, which are generally high maintenance in comparison. If you had a choice wouldn't you bring a BST every time?

I was referring to people who said that a pet alone was more overpowered than a DD. I agree there's a balance to the relationship, but that's a difficult balance. It's pretty clear cut the pet alone shouldn't do more damage than an equally geared DD. As I said, my friends laughed when I asked how powerful BST was when I was curious about all the hub bub.

Given that when DD and WHM could do most of abysssea faster than my BST and a PUP friend, I'd likely always choose BST period. I have a 99 whm, and personally, I sure as heck would pick BST, PUP, DRG, SMN, DNC party over any DD even if the DDs were a lot better, and I'd have the DRG go /rdm.

DDs are needy but it's always been that way. Why do you think generally more people like DD than healer/support? I don't think it's because DD is harder. I could tell so many AFK and Football watching DD stories here...

I'd pick a group of people who love to have fun on ANY job over the best DDs in the game.

Why do you want the range nerfed more than the damage? It seems like you want the job to suck so bad that others will party with you even if it's a lot more work for them. Why should BST be killed so that WHMs will put up with DDs? Why not make DDs more self-sufficient? Maybe make WHMs Meleeing fighting fun healers, so fun can be had by all? Sure it changes how jobs have worked for years, but BST should suck up this range nerf. Maybe all jobs should?

Personally, I'd rather the range nerf be adjusted to let me melee with my pet, and some consideration to helping with gear like allowing augments to both master and pet but maybe halving/reducing the buff so it's spread across both more evenly.

[detlef]

I don't really have anything to say to most of your post but I didn't ask for a nerf. I did say it was OP and I enjoyed it while it was. I also think that SE's solution to the perceived problem could stand to be tweaked a bit while remaining true to their BST playstyle intentions (adjusting the distance to something a little more manageable for example).

To me, I see this nerf as a reaction to something that SE just wasn't comfortable designing and adjusting content around. I think a good parallel is Embrava which was so good and lasted for such a long time that every strat used it. Something simply had to be done and most reasonable people understood that at the time even though it sure was a nice crutch to have. Basically, SE couldn't balance content for groups with and without Embrava. I think that's what SE had in mind when they made the adjustment. Maybe they went too far, who knows. I mean depending on who you ask the job is either just fine or completely unplayable.

[kylani]

I don't really have anything to say to most of your post but I didn't ask for a nerf. I did say it was OP and I enjoyed it while it was. I also think that SE's solution to the perceived problem could stand to be tweaked a bit while remaining true to their BST playstyle intentions (adjusting the distance to something a little more manageable for example).

To me, I see this nerf as a reaction to something that SE just wasn't comfortable designing and adjusting content around. I think a good parallel is Embrava which was so good and lasted for such a long time that every strat used it. Something simply had to be done and most reasonable people understood that at the time even though it sure was a nice crutch to have. Basically, SE couldn't balance content for groups with and without Embrava. I think that's what SE had in mind when they made the adjustment. Maybe they went too far, who knows. I mean depending on who you ask the job is either just fine or completely unplayable.

I agree with you. To me the difference here is SE nerfed a core job ability BST has had since day one that is a regular ability and our way of doing content. Embrava and Perfect Defense were one ability that could only be used every hour (don't remember if it was 2 hours back then). When these were nerfed, SE also adjusted the content to be less difficult because embrava and PD were pretty much required to do the content (or felt to be, anyway).

This does very much remind me of these nerfs. A good friend quit over the PD nerf even though he was also both happy SMN was finally wanted, but annoyed at all the bandwagon SMNs because he had always loved SMN and took pride in his ability. At the same time, I don't think many folks really wanted to level SMN for PD, but they felt they had to, and were helped by people wanting to do endgame. They kinda 'took one for the team'. My son leveled Scholar because of embrava and ended up loving Scholar.

So I saw both sides. My friend had loved the game and leveled most jobs anyway, but the whole debacle soured him on the game. My son didn't love the nerf, but didn't get as upset as our SMN friend because he hadn't had the same experience of finally seeing a job he loved wanted then nerfed. If it were up to me, I'd have preferred the content to have been adjusted more. These were skills that you could only do every hour (maybe 2 hours back then, I don't remember now). For a 2 hour, 5 minutes down to 90 seconds was harsh (even if you had a corsair 'win' the ability back for another try, it was still limited). I suspect most would have preferred to do the content with regular abilities than rely on this gimmick. I think I have bad feelings associated with every nerf that has occurred in the game.

Unlike PD and Embrava, SE didn't adjust the content here, and folks are doing the content just fine still, if not better now that they are over the idea that BST has to be used.

I don't recall people telling SCH and SMNs that they don't know how their job was meant to be played. Honestly, people who have never played BST saying we don't know how BST was meant to be played are the reason I find it hard to stay. It WAS a solo job for many of us. I have adjusted over the years, and could adjust again, but don't say it was never a solo job. I leveled other jobs in groups when I could party 3 hours a night, but I had a job and kids. If it hadn't been for BST, I'd have probably quit long ago. With BST, I could be on call, and level, and log out when a problem came up. Eventually, I could do the same on BLM and DRG, but BST is the job that made me feel like I could play casual when I needed to. So for me, a lot of this is personal, lol. Don't be attacking my favorite job for 12+ years.

I can play BST, but it's very frustrating chasing around for my pet. I can only imagine how frustrating it may be for BSTs trying to do endgame. Nerfs have come and gone, but now that the end of the game is in sight, will BST ever be adjusted to be fun again? It seems SE took the expedient way because they didn't care. So it makes it hard for me to care.

[kylani]

I don't really have anything to say to most of your post but I didn't ask for a nerf. I did say it was OP and I enjoyed it while it was. I also think that SE's solution to the perceived problem could stand to be tweaked a bit while remaining true to their BST playstyle intentions (adjusting the distance to something a little more manageable for example).

To me, I see this nerf as a reaction to something that SE just wasn't comfortable designing and adjusting content around. I think a good parallel is Embrava which was so good and lasted for such a long time that every strat used it. Something simply had to be done and most reasonable people understood that at the time even though it sure was a nice crutch to have. Basically, SE couldn't balance content for groups with and without Embrava. I think that's what SE had in mind when they made the adjustment. Maybe they went too far, who knows. I mean depending on who you ask the job is either just fine or completely unplayable.

fyi - Sorry if I went off on a rant. It's not directed at you at all. I typically delete these when I vent, but maybe if I leave this one, I'll have more closure. Thanks.

[Dale]

No, it was not. It was not. Seriously. Please show me the math where a BST was out damaging other DD jobs. They aren't. They weren't. Everything BST was doing could be done by other jobs. Just differently. Being able to do something differently that other jobs can still complete is not OP. SERIOUSLY. Being occasionally invited to a few endgame events for the first time in 13 years is NOT OP.

No offense Olor, but you're bias. You play the job and just don't want to admit it was too powerful. I can understand that. No one likes to be nerfed.

But the truth is you was out damaging other DD jobs. You was also out-tanking them for that matter; and soloing notorious monsters faster and easier than entire groups could and doing it all while safely staying out of range.

A lot of jobs aren't invited to endgame events. So that's not really a valid reason as to why they should get to be so powerful either.

Way I see it: there were two ways SE could begin to address this issue:

1. Tone down your super pets so you didn't have such crazy damage + survivability.

2. Force you to fight up close like other melee jobs so you are susceptible to area attacks.

They went with option 2 it looks like.

That being said: the range should be increased to the point Beast Masters can comfortably melee with their pets out. If you are on the monster's ass yet still can't issue a command - I'll happily concede that's a real problem and sounds annoying no doubt about it.

[bazookatooth]

No offense Olor, but you're bias. You play the job and just don't want to admit it was too powerful. I can understand that. No one likes to be nerfed.

But the truth is you was out damaging other DD jobs. You was also out-tanking them for that matter; and soloing notorious monsters faster and easier than entire groups could and doing it all while safely staying out of range.

A lot of jobs aren't invited to endgame events. So that's not really a valid reason as to why they should get to be so powerful either.

Way I see it: there were two ways SE could begin to address this issue:

1. Tone down your super pets so you didn't have such crazy damage + survivability.

2. Force you to fight up close like other melee jobs so you are susceptible to area attacks.

They went with option 2 it looks like.

That being said: the range should be increased to the point Beast Masters can comfortably melee with their pets out. If you are on the monster's ass yet still can't issue a command - I'll happily concede that's a real problem and sounds annoying no doubt about it.

He might be biased, but he's also correct. Do the math or Google it. There are spreadsheets available if you don't want to figure it out on your own. It's a fact. BST pets were never the best DDs. Get it out of your head. No matter how many time you say it, it will never be true. If you saw a bst pet doing better damage it's because that bst is better than other players. Not because the job is better. If geared and played at the same level with the same buffs, other jobs can easily out damage BST. This isn't a matter of opinion. It's a matter of game mechanics. Your opinion can't change the way the game works. That's just how it is. There is nothing to discuss on this front.

The only thing you should be discussing is survival, because that's the only thing unique about BST pets. It has to do with their HP. Because a pet can only be healed once ever 52 seconds or something like that (Without pooping money) a normal player can actually be healed for more damage over time. But, because a pet has high HP it can survive large AOE moves or breaks in healing without dieing. That's it. That's what needs to be brought to scale with players. In my opinion they could do that in various ways, but this nerf wasn't one of them. Personally, I think they need to raise player HP and defensive capabilities and lower pets HP somewhat to meet in the middle more. It's pretty stupid that you have to have a GEO and a WHM for all content that isn't soloable.