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  1. #151
    Player Stompa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Remora
    Posts
    666
    Character
    Nebula
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    BST Lv 75
    Quote Originally Posted by Olor View Post
    The biggest difference is the Rudra's nerf didn't take away a style of play that had existed since the job began. It took away part of a buff. And the second biggest difference is Rudra's is still very good. BST, not so much.

    Pre-nerf BST was not actually "the style of play that had existed since the job began" at all. The original BST had jugpets that died in a couple of hits from any strong mob, and their pet healing was on reward timer without mulsum spam. The original job was all about charm-chaining, the only times you used jugpets were if all charm mobs were down, or if you were in an easy bcnm. My first Maat win was on BST in 2005 and I paid a fortune for a single Panzer jug, the pet still died in short time lol. Jugpets were super weak back then, before stout servant.

    So the original BST "style of play" was never about calling these new Siege Engine pets and just spamming mulsums. Reward was long-range because the master rarely meleed any seriously powerful mobs, most BST stood far away from those mobs, with a light/earth staff equipped, and SS/blink up lol. So it made sense for BST to have long range remote-mode pet commands.

    But the job mechanics changed in Aby, no charm pets available, and BST was encouraged to be more melee. We understand that SE have tried to find the right balance since then, because the original BST job was turned upside down in 2010, and since that time we got ilvl pets, which again affected the job balance.

    I can see why SE needed to rebalance BST again, it was never designed to be played the way it has been recently. But I also agree with many posters here, that it is ridiculous to have such a tiny reward range, that if you are on other side of the mob you can't cure your pet. That range is too short, clearly.
    (4)

  2. #152
    Player Alhanelem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Bastok
    Posts
    11,124
    Beast Master was insanely powerful with their super cricket out
    Well, if they're insanely powerful with their super cricket whatever thingy, then why would they not adjust that instead of adjusting pet command range?

    Your argument doesn't have anything to do with the change that was made, and the change that was made does nothing to address the problem you're alleging exists. Even if it is a problem (and I'm not conceding that it is), the change SE made does nothing to fix it.

    This is nothing new: so it seems to me from reading this that Beast Master is just having to deal with the same crap every other melee class on this game has to.
    BST is barely more of a melee class than the other pet jobs. It gets some more heavy armor gear options (though most of those options don't help your pet), but it's still not super sturdy like a PLD or WAR. Still, from the screenshots ive seen people post, and from comments ive seen here and in game, the range was reduced to so short that you can easily be in melee range of the mob and not able to command your pet. If they want to make it so you can't be standing in absolute safety and play the job like SMN, well, I can sort of understand that (I don't agree but I understand), but the change was so drastic that you have to be litreally glued to your pet's behind in order to give it commands.

    PUP generally melees with its pet and they weren't affected by this- another reason why the change makes no sense. This change might not be the end of the world, but it simply causes aggravation for no good reason. JP players have already testified they can still kick butt with BST, so obviously the change didn't achieve it's intended purpose.
    (5)
    Last edited by Alhanelem; 09-24-2015 at 11:22 AM.

  3. #153
    Player Stompa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Remora
    Posts
    666
    Character
    Nebula
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    BST Lv 75
    Quote Originally Posted by Alhanelem View Post
    BST is barely more of a melee class than the other pet jobs. It gets some more heavy armor gear options (though most of those options don't help your pet), but it's still not super sturdy like a PLD or WAR.
    I liked and agreed with your whole post, but I snipped this line because it is particularly salient. I think you convey the confusing messages on the job change well.

    For six years, we played BST as a mage job. I was on a BST-only LS on Remora, and the LS chat was always talking about MP-gear, how to get star-necklace from quest, how great lamia-mantle+1 was for MP, etc.etc. When you started levelling BST, the first thing they told you was "level WHM sub." You had to actually level WHM37 before you even started levelling your BST. Nobody levelled WAR or other melee subs, and most people played BST/WHM full-time, with occasional BST/NIN in events, but that was only for shadows, not the dual-wield.

    BST was built around this idea that the master is super-squishy, and out in the wilderness when you solo or low-man, you needed /WHM and you need as much MP gear as you can get. Obviously the arrival of /DNC changed all jobs to a certain extent, and the level 75+ era changed BST itself completely, and ILVL gear made all jobs quite uniformly Robocop. But underlying it was really that the beastmaster was a kind of wilderness druid, a mage job with axes and a natural affinity with all wild beasts. There was never a suggestion that this job was a front-line soldier type of job, and in the 2004~2010 years the BST job was actually a master of white magic, carefully using MP and spells to stay safe while the charmed beasts did the fighting almost out of visual range.

    I think this is the problem, the job has changed so much, and the ilvl game is so different, that the original core nature of jobs have struggled to adapt. Sometimes SE will try to help jobs adapt, by changing them stronger/weaker, but what we are left with is some of the original jobs trying to play outside of their comfort zone.
    (5)

  4. #154
    Player Skyrant_Kangaroomouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    76
    Character
    Skyrant
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale View Post
    Beast Master was insanely powerful with their super cricket out. I was watching them slaughter normal difficulty avatars faster than a full group and clearing an entire screen full of incredibly toughs in a matter of seconds. So unless they have decreased the power of your pets since I've been away: something did need to happen. They were over-powered. There is just no denying that. Having that kind of damage coupled with the survivability of your pet while being able to stand safely out of the range of area attacks was God-mode. That's why everyone and their mother started leveling a beast master.

    Also: every other melee dps on this game faces the dilemma of being killed by area attacks. This is nothing new: so it seems to me from reading this that Beast Master is just having to deal with the same crap every other melee class on this game has to.

    I don't play Beast Master. Maybe the range is too small. I'm not saying it isn't. But some changes were necessary.
    This change is like reducing the fuel tank of a super car because it goes too fast.
    It sure did not change the fact that we still have the super cricket and can still do what we did before. I still laugh at all the melee trying to do as much damage as i do. You all still suck compared to a well geared BST.

    The only thing the change did was make it annoying to play the job. So annoying that it is not fun any more. I settle for a 10 yalm range, but not this ridiculous 5 yalm nonsense.
    (2)
    Is 20 dmg for the hit like 30 dmg if a RNG shoots?

    No DRG for party, camp spot site with 30 dmg, but is it for 20 like 30 dmg when you no hit be it for dd, for 30 dmg instead? or half is 10 for 20 dmg?
    How i mine for fish?
    Try BST BST COR GEO WHM BRD You can melee and fight with your pet..

  5. #155
    Player Daniel_Hatcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    2,577
    Character
    Alvian
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 12
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale View Post
    Maybe the range is too small.
    No maybe about it, I don't mind the change on the range (as such), but it's way too small, should have been at least double.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyrant_Kangaroomouse View Post
    I still laugh at all the melee trying to do as much damage as i do. You all still suck compared to a well geared BST.
    Comments like that is one of the reasons people called for a nerf in the first place.
    (5)

  6. #156
    Player Malthar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    674
    Character
    Malthar
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    I don't know about you guys, but ever since the nerf I've lost a lot of interest in FFXI and started playing Elite: Dangerous more. I spend, maybe, an hour in FFXI now and the rest in Elite: Dangerous. It's become a more fun game now. How wrong is that?!
    (1)

  7. #157
    Player Keido's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    18
    Character
    Keido
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Alhanelem View Post
    ... so obviously the change didn't achieve it's intended purpose.
    Yes it did. Already the bandwagon players have moved on from it and you are seeing the truly skilled players that love the job adapt and overcome. Pretty sure I stated that this was going to happen and it is. It exactly why we don't see BLU spam. The Reward to Power ratio is high but only if you really know the job and invest the time to understand and maximize it. Again this was the perfect solution and its having the desired effect.
    (1)

  8. #158
    Player Jile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    390
    This change has made BST completely unenjoyable and virtually unusable. This change was completely unnecessary and needs removed. I'm not a bandwagon player. This change makes me want to unsubscribe all three of my accounts and move on. A dmg decrease on pets for non RME could have been an easy first step. This change has all but deleted BST from the game. SE, please fix this egregious and unnecessary mistake.
    (3)

  9. #159
    Player Dale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    802
    Character
    Jeremi
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Alhanelem View Post
    Well, if they're insanely powerful with their super cricket whatever thingy, then why would they not adjust that instead of adjusting pet command range?
    That's a good question.

    Perhaps that would have been the better route to take. My point to you is that some changes were necessary. Rather or not this was the right change is dubious. But something did have to happen. The job was way out of whack. Those of you acting like this job was just fine the way it was are kidding yourselves.

    What these changes do is force the Beast Master to get up close and take incoming damage. That's what it was intended to do. It was too powerful to have them sitting back out of harm's way tanking some of the most powerful notorious monsters in the game with their pets while doing crazy damage to boot. Any fair minded person who is not bias because they play the job should be able to admit that.

    Again: rather or not this was the right way to go about it is not the argument I'm making. What I am doing is challenging your assertion that no changes were necessary because I believe changes were necessary.
    (1)
    Last edited by Dale; 09-24-2015 at 11:24 PM.

  10. #160
    Player Dale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    802
    Character
    Jeremi
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyrant_Kangaroomouse View Post
    This change is like reducing the fuel tank of a super car because it goes too fast.
    It sure did not change the fact that we still have the super cricket and can still do what we did before. I still laugh at all the melee trying to do as much damage as i do. You all still suck compared to a well geared BST.

    The only thing the change did was make it annoying to play the job. So annoying that it is not fun any more. I settle for a 10 yalm range, but not this ridiculous 5 yalm nonsense.
    Perhaps.

    My point is Beast Master was over-powered and it needed to be changed in some way. As I've stated: this may or may not have been the correct way to go about doing it. I've already conceded that. So that's not really a debate I'm interested in having. I'll let people who actually play the job hash that one out.

    My objection is for those who suggest the job was fine and no changes were necessary. Because it was not fine and changes did need to happen. It was ridiculously over-powered.

    So while it might be true we still all suck when compared to you: at least now you actually have to worry about area attacks and damage the way the rest of us melee jobs do.
    (2)
    Last edited by Dale; 09-24-2015 at 11:45 PM.

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