To the posters of this fourm, understand constructive criticism

[Seriha]

It might work with your buddies, but for strangers on the internet, it's probably the quickest way to get them to cover their ears and stop listening. Or mash the report button, as some seem to fear.

There's another side that the "right" tend to overlook in their own pursuit of proving their points: Ignore it. The mere existence of a post does not automatically translate to an infection of stupid or even an indication of the general populace's thoughts on the given matter. Every time you reply to a bad idea, you're bumping the thread, possibly giving the creator of whatever bad idea fodder to argue and basically keep things circulating and lending to the illusion of an important topic. When you start arguing for the sake of arguing, then, you've pretty much lost the fight. I've lost count of the threads I saw that could've pretty much ended after the first reply or three, but someone had to go and poke the proverbial hornet's nest. And if there's one thing neither side likes, it's losing.

[Kensagaku]

While I agree it's not the nicest tactic (that I am unfortunately guilty of myself), at the same time it's the only way to drive a point home. There are those who are so stubborn, so set in their belief that they are right, that they will not back down for a moment to realize that someone is trying to explain something to them. It is beyond frustrating to try and tell someone that they may be wrong (note that I use the word may here; I have thought something only to be proven wrong as well. We're not perfect.) only to get "No, you're wrong, now shut up and stop flaming my thread, you troll." We get irritated, we snap back and retaliate.

Only in rare instances are attacks ever unjustified - maybe it doesn't make them a nicer tactic for it, but at the same time, any time someone is attacked on a forum, whether it is aimed at their reputation or at their credibility, odds are its earned. I won't deny that there are people who choose to troll "just for the lulz" as it's said, but usually a person who is being "trolled" generally has earned it in some way. Krystal is (was? haven't seen a post recently) a brilliant example, often putting down anyone who disagrees with her and insulting them in some way. Often she was seen acting very superior when she was called out on being wrong, giving her an inflated ego and causing her to pad out her "credibility" with false tales in order to once more show the stubborn "you're wrong" argument.

Sometimes stating your opinion isn't enough. The majority of the "trolls" here are dedicated to keeping the right information flowing through to the people who use this forum and seek to find information or push ideas through to SE. We want to help improve people, and enable them to pass accurate information onto their peers. We want to help improve the game too; we're not (for the most part, at very least I can speak for myself) trying to just push everyone over and laugh about it.

Sometimes there's a call for diplomacy on this; there are those who will listen and offer valid arguments rather than saying "No u!" or calling people out as trolls just because they disagree. These people can be reasoned with, and can point out ideas that we may not have considered, or might eventually agree with us, depending on the debate. These can go over well, and generally end amicably on both sides.

However, sometimes force is necessary as well, and it's a way of containing inaccurate information that should not be spread and as a result affect everyone's play quality. There are those who will dig their heels in and start spamming the report button so that they may remove any and all opposition that might poke a tiny little hole in someone's inflated ego. In order to stop that, sometimes different tactics are necessary.

My point here is, sometimes you can be nice, and sometimes you have to show the hard lessons in life. It all depends on the civility of those involved.

[/wall'o'text speech]

[Darka]

Yeah well such is life, if you say or do something stupid with friends, at work, in sports, other games, or anywhere else on the internet someone is going to call you out. I don't see why this is an exception, there's a difference between civility and the equivalent of someone running to their parents when their idea or suggestion is criticized. It's even worse when the end result could very well be a useful/informative thread getting nuked because someone can't take criticism.

[Seriha]

Well, there's always the old saying, "You can bring a horse to water, but your can't force them to drink."

Replace horse with a person, water with whatever info you're trying to convey, and drink with learning it. You may not educate them, but someone who comes later on could partake. Forum contributions aren't always immediate like that, and we can't even begin to fathom the impact our words make, good or bad, to those who simply lurk.

As is, I am (perhaps unfortunately) a bit of a white knight personality when it comes to my internet actions. I do not miss my youthful days of being bullied and am not at all interested in seeing that perpetuated in today's more tech-inclined era. I will never be convinced that malicious trolling makes a forum healthier and knowing that some random guy in his mid-20s decided to pwn a teenager isn't much of a win in my book. You'll never know what they'd do after, be it harm to themselves or transferring that rage and disappointment to others within reach. The concept of paying it forward is simply not limited to good deeds. In the end, a little FFXI misinformation is not the apocalypse.

[Karbuncle]

While I agree it's not the nicest tactic (that I am unfortunately guilty of myself), at the same time it's the only way to drive a point home. There are those who are so stubborn, so set in their belief that they are right, that they will not back down for a moment to realize that someone is trying to explain something to them. It is beyond frustrating to try and tell someone that they may be wrong (note that I use the word may here; I have thought something only to be proven wrong as well. We're not perfect.) only to get "No, you're wrong, now shut up and stop flaming my thread, you troll." We get irritated, we snap back and retaliate.

Only in rare instances are attacks ever unjustified - maybe it doesn't make them a nicer tactic for it, but at the same time, any time someone is attacked on a forum, whether it is aimed at their reputation or at their credibility, odds are its earned. I won't deny that there are people who choose to troll "just for the lulz" as it's said, but usually a person who is being "trolled" generally has earned it in some way. Krystal is (was? haven't seen a post recently) a brilliant example, often putting down anyone who disagrees with her and insulting them in some way. Often she was seen acting very superior when she was called out on being wrong, giving her an inflated ego and causing her to pad out her "credibility" with false tales in order to once more show the stubborn "you're wrong" argument.

Sometimes stating your opinion isn't enough. The majority of the "trolls" here are dedicated to keeping the right information flowing through to the people who use this forum and seek to find information or push ideas through to SE. We want to help improve people, and enable them to pass accurate information onto their peers. We want to help improve the game too; we're not (for the most part, at very least I can speak for myself) trying to just push everyone over and laugh about it.

Sometimes there's a call for diplomacy on this; there are those who will listen and offer valid arguments rather than saying "No u!" or calling people out as trolls just because they disagree. These people can be reasoned with, and can point out ideas that we may not have considered, or might eventually agree with us, depending on the debate. These can go over well, and generally end amicably on both sides.

However, sometimes force is necessary as well, and it's a way of containing inaccurate information that should not be spread and as a result affect everyone's play quality. There are those who will dig their heels in and start spamming the report button so that they may remove any and all opposition that might poke a tiny little hole in someone's inflated ego. In order to stop that, sometimes different tactics are necessary.

My point here is, sometimes you can be nice, and sometimes you have to show the hard lessons in life. It all depends on the civility of those involved.

[/wall'o'text speech]

This is the most accurately correct, Nicely Worded, Reasonable Speech on the subject in this thread (theres some close seconds).

And if the thread continues long past here, He just proved himself right. Because this entire speech should basically be the closing point of this thread.

Lets see how long until someone replies with a rebuttal to it.

[Kensagaku]

Too late, Krabby.

[Mrbeansman]

The concept of paying it forward is simply not limited to good deeds. In the end, a little FFXI misinformation is not the apocalypse.

If this was another Forum I might be inclined to agree but this isn't just some forum. When they post stuff like the raise abyssea cap to 75 shit it is our duty to crush them to show that they are a super minority, otherwise the developers might actually believe that there word is the word of all of us.

[Karbuncle]

Well, there's always the old saying, "You can bring a horse to water, but your can't force them to drink."

Replace horse with a person, water with whatever info you're trying to convey, and drink with learning it. You may not educate them, but someone who comes later on could partake. Forum contributions aren't always immediate like that, and we can't even begin to fathom the impact our words make, good or bad, to those who simply lurk.

As is, I am (perhaps unfortunately) a bit of a white knight personality when it comes to my internet actions. I do not miss my youthful days of being bullied and am not at all interested in seeing that perpetuated in today's more tech-inclined era. I will never be convinced that malicious trolling makes a forum healthier and knowing that some random guy in his mid-20s decided to pwn a teenager isn't much of a win in my book. You'll never know what they'd do after, be it harm to themselves or transferring that rage and disappointment to others within reach. The concept of paying it forward is simply not limited to good deeds. In the end, a little FFXI misinformation is not the apocalypse.

Isn't what i do to myself after reading quite possibly the stupidest, thick Headed, Stalker-like posts of some of these people, Important too?

I've always tried my best to word my objections fairly, and 9/10 someone will come back with some stupid over-the-top offensive crap that makes my brain bleed due to the misinformation spewed vehemently over the idea and the post.

I seriously try to remain as civil as possible, but I'm only human, when someone resorts to repeatedly making offensive whiny posts when i try to explain to them why its incorrect or wrong, i lost my temper. I'm human.

So, I think both sides can use this argument. I might go cut myself or beat my (DELETED) simply because i read something so stupid it made a tumor in my brain 1 centimeter larger, While those who see the words "I'm not a fan of your idea, Heres why" apparently rage offensively to it.

If you haven't guessed by now, I'm being mildly sarcastic, But theres a hint of truth to my statement. I think if the conversation begins with "Heres my idea." > "I'm not a fan of this, It seems unrealistic" > "YOUR A TROLL I HATE YOU", Then the person in question who started said idea generally deserves what he gets.

Expecting people to remain 100% Civil all the time is unrealistic, We're all human. Point is though, the people you're defending, are more often the not, the ones that start the entire problem. They take any form of criticism, or a different point of view, or a disagreement, as "TROLLING", and immediately go off the deep end, or spam the report button, or something equally very childish.

I agree with what you're saying, but its a 2-way Street, of which those you defend simply are not driving down (most of them).

(10 Bucks this will probably get "reported" too because it doesn't fall in line with the OP)

If this was another Forum I might be inclined to agree but this isn't just some forum. When they post stuff like the raise abyssea cap to 75 shit it is our duty to crush them to show that they are a super minority, otherwise the developers might actually believe that there word is the word of all of us.

Also this! Thank you Mrbean.

[Seriha]

I wouldn't even call my post an argument against it. Just my own tactic for handling it is a bit different. Leave someone arm-flailing alone long enough, they'll probably get bored and give up. If they turn around and self-bump their own topics, on some level, you're given justification to report them for spamming. So, umm... Time Out or Tough Love? I just think the latter crosses the line at times.

And as much as I can be a sarcastic ass RL, I know that doesn't always convey to text well. Need to be careful there, especially if people don't know you.

[Karbuncle]

I wouldn't even call my post an argument against it. Just my own tactic for handling it is a bit different. Leave someone arm-flailing alone long enough, they'll probably get bored and give up. If they turn around and self-bump their own topics, on some level, you're given justification to report them for spamming. So, umm... Time Out or Tough Love? I just think the latter crosses the line at times.

(I Feel I should point out, a lot of what i see here isn't "pointed at you" but more in general. Sorry if it comes off wrong)

I definitely agree sometimes people take it too far. But its not an instant thing, its Gradual.

My tactic has always been trying to nicely explain something, or to point out flaws, or to point out things unrealistic. I try to keep it nice, but 9/10 I still get an angry heated crybaby response for no reason other than they think I'm trolling just because I don't agree with them.

The people you're probably referring too generally try to keep their responses this way as well, they are simply human, and when someone resorts to screaming at them and calling them a troll simply because they don't agree with them, They lost their cool.

There are two sides to this solution, and one of them is the people in question who just "Spam report and scream troll" need to grow up. They can't take criticism, and expecting everyone else here to have the willpower of Gandhi is unrealistic. This is a tough love world, while i do not agree with Resorting to name-calling ever, especially in a "First Response" sometimes people lose their temper.

Again, its a 2-way road, and 99% of the people who just Cry "Troll" Refuse to ever believe their ideas are bad or wrong, and call everyone who tries to show them that, a troll.

I wish there was an easy way to try and explain what I'm saying :| its just I have a hard time with words.