Nukes!!!

[Selindrile]

In what possible way could I have proven your point, I've already proven your points incorrect. You never attempted to make the point that melee Whm was inefficient compared to other jobs based on merit, had you, I'd have readily agreed.

Whm isn't efficient as a melee DD compared to other options. Once again, I would like to see Whm (and indeed all jobs) with the ability to dual wield to have more options for spells.

The actual things you stated were as follows:

You tried to say that jobs never get abilities outside of their core role. - Wrong
You tried to say their was no historical basis of Whms dual wielding. - Wrong
You tried to say devs had no intentions of Whms meleeing. - Wrong
You tried to say it was a waste of dev time. - Debatable, in theory it shouldn't be much of a time investment, but, that's hard to say with authority.

[Zeldar]

In what possible way could I have proven your point, I've already proven your points incorrect. You never attempted to make the point that melee Whm was inefficient compared to other jobs based on merit, had you, I'd have readily agreed.

Whm isn't efficient as a melee DD compared to other options. Once again, I would like to see Whm (and indeed all jobs) with the ability to dual wield to have more options for spells.

The actual things you stated were as follows:

You tried to say that jobs never get abilities outside of their core role. - Wrong
You tried to say their was no historical basis of Whms dual wielding. - Wrong
You tried to say devs had no intentions of Whms meleeing. - Wrong
You tried to say it was a waste of dev time. - Debatable, in theory it shouldn't be much of a time investment, but, that's hard to say with authority.

Please reply with quotes where I have said any of this aside from point 4. Maybe you have misunderstood, or don't want to understand, things I have said.

[Zeldar]

The core purpose of dual wield is to hit things with 2 weapons, not to gain attributes from 2 weapons. Forgive me for thinking this obvious and not pointing it out earlier. I assumed it was a given. You will see that the great minds that run this game will agree with me when they laugh at your posts and move on to real issues.

[Selindrile]

The "core purpose" differs from person to person depending on who is lobbying for the change, for the majority, that may be so, but I made it abundantly clear that this was my reasoning for lobbying for such a thing, multiple times. It was obvious you didn't think melee Whm was efficient, but you never point blank said it, so I had no reason to state my agreement with that part.

But you posted a number of incorrect statements in your reasoning that I felt deserved to be pointed out.

Also, the devs ignore the majority of posts, good and bad alike, saying that such will be ignored by the devs has little bearing over the validity of the post.

[BBWallace]

I don't care for DW on whm considering I would never get anywhere near the mob for it to be usefully. All I want are higher tier banish spells. Which if you ask most whm they would prob say yes. And for you saying oh WHM is a healer why have I seen some WHM's out nuking Geo/rdm? Anyways SE gives us Banish 4&5 please.

[Jakuk]

I don't care for DW on whm considering I would never get anywhere near the mob for it to be usefully. All I want are higher tier banish spells. Which if you ask most whm they would prob say yes. And for you saying oh WHM is a healer why have I seen some WHM's out nuking Geo/rdm? Anyways SE gives us Banish 4&5 please.

From what I understand they don't want it for melee, it's because two one-handed weapons give greater buffs than one two-handed staff. tbf there is no real reason against dual wield being possible for all, albeit with no delay reduction.

[Selindrile]

You tried to say that jobs never get abilities outside of their core role.

Well, you don't have it because you don't need it. Does it remove status ailments r cure your party? No. So the parties healer doesn't need it.

Jerbob rebutted you quite well. Also there are many situations where non-core capabilites of jobs come in quite handy, or where job-capabilities expand or change, many of which were talked about.

About the "no historical basis of Whms dual wielding" I may have been a bit sloppy on my description, my apologies, I was referring to:

Outside of things like VW where a blu can sub pld and shield bash, and outside of leveling pre level 24, when has it EVER been better to wear 1 dagger or sword on BLU, THF, or DNC???? NEVER. It ade sense that these jobs got dual wield. There is no real situation where it makes sense for WHM to naturally be able to equip 2 weapons. WHM weapons are not for attacking.

I responded with:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/sh...549#post583549

Because there have been many times single-wielding has been historically superior, and a few where it made sense for Whms to dual wield.

You tried to say devs had no intentions of Whms meleeing.

WHM IS a healing job: no more.
WHM was meant to heal.

WHM weapons are not for attacking.

Where it's clear the Devs meant for them to melee, at least during normal exp, take a lot at Mjollnir, take a look at all the dev videos they released of Whms meleeing. For goodness sake Auspice provides Enlight and accuracy to the Whm itself only when meleeing.

Do I agree with the idea that really they should Melee? No, but did the devs mean them to? - Clearly.

[Zeldar]

LOL, so by giving WHM weaponskills, they meant for them to melee. OK then, I guess all jobs were meant to melee, because all jobs have access to weaponskills. It making no swnse for a WHM to melee and WHM historically not being melee are completely different. "You don't have it because you don't need it. " is far from saying jobs never get abilities outside of their core role. So you "rebutted" everything I said my completely misquoting me. Beautiful.

[Selindrile]

LOL, so by giving WHM weaponskills, they meant for them to melee. OK then, I guess all jobs were meant to melee, because all jobs have access to weaponskills. It making no swnse for a WHM to melee and WHM historically not being melee are completely different. "You don't have it because you don't need it. " is far from saying jobs never get abilities outside of their core role. So you "rebutted" everything I said my completely misquoting me. Beautiful.

By giving them Auspice, with special effects that only work when meleeing, a relic that only works when you melee, and most of the old videos that showed Whms in exp parties meleeing, it's clear they meant for them to melee at least some of the time, and actually yes, they did intend for all jobs to melee during exp in the early years of the game, that position has since changed, but the argument in this case was about intent.

I didn't misquote you, I literally posted a link to your quote, it's pretty cut and dry. "You don't have it because you don't need it" = "You don't get things you don't need" = "You don't get abilities outside your core role." it has the same meaning, I was just trying to use less pronouns, for clarity.

As a funny side note, the person that first suggested native WHM dual wield a year or so ago just posted in this thread, saying it was sarcasm (as I suspected and stated in an earlier post.)

If anyone cares, yes, I'd like dual-wield on WHM but no, I don't think it would ever happen, and no, I don't think it would make sense. I would like the option to sub something besides NIN or DNC for meleeing, but I know it'll never happen.

Once again, nope, saying that they don't think it'll ever happen isn't the same thing as being sarcastic, they literally said it was something they'd like/want, therefore, not sarcasm.

The only way WHM would be able to get native DW is if all jobs got native DW.

That's literally what I'd hoped for in my initial post, though in my case I'd be happy even if there was an attack speed penalty for "Dual Wield 0" as I'm primarily after the ability to dual wield clubs for spell modifiers, also, I agree with the rest of that post.

[Zeldar]

And yes, you ARE right about another thing (I already bowed out of the no new banish debate) : I overstated it a bit when I said those single handed weapons NEVER used any sub but DNC or NIN. I do recall the BLU/THF days. I do not recall THF/WAR or BLU/WAR in the old days for end game content, but you may be right. It still doesn't disprove the point that the jobs that it makes sense to have native dual wield now have it. As a funny side note, the person that first suggested native WHM dual wield a year or so ago just posted in this thread, saying it was sarcasm (as I suspected and stated in an earlier post.)