Please give old content some love!

[Pooty]

Second: SE only needs to use the PS2 devkits for playstation updates. They can continue releasing PC updates as much as they please. The entire reason they already have cut PS2 support is there are no more Devkits.

PC updates are done on their computers though, the devkit is used to port the update to PS2.

Actually, the PS2 development kits are used to develop the game itself. The PC version is ported from the PlayStation 2 version, not the other way around.

[Ulth]

The triangular number formula is n(n+1)/2, and it's the formula that job points follow. So to max out a category when the cap is 20 it will take 210 job points. So the total job points to finish a job would be 2100 since each job has 10 categories. Adding one or two categories more would make the cap closer to 2400, but SE said they were done adding new ones at 10, and are probably out of balanced ideas for them anyway.

[Ulth]

RoE quests aren't going to make people up and do old events again though. People will just do it once then be done with it. They added the capacity thing to the reives RoE quests and I did them, but I have yet to go into inner court to knock down reives since. Some of the old content you mentioned people still do though. I know at the end of the login campaign when I try for defending ring, there is an actual line of players waiting to pop Behemoths. Genbu seals are used for augmenting the best shield for cures. Susaku is the best source of Siren's Hair in the game. I did a lot of BCNMs during the campaign because of all the additional drops. A RoV KI that lowers the cost of orbs wouldn't hurt though. Chocobos do need some love. They could remove the cap so player raised chocobos can be at least as good as rented ones, or maybe even better. I know their speed can't go any faster, but they could make them last longer and dig better then rented ones. Also a whistle that had unlimited uses like the warp ring would be handy.

[Krishnaya]

I've talked with lots of people in the game about this and the old leveling systems/options need a boost. The new xp systems and expansions CAN COEXIST with the old ways if some simple issues are addressed. I think there's really simple options for how to achieve this. Urat mentioned simply removing the XP penalty for full 6 person parties. Easy and effective!

I have another way I would find more satisfying. That is simply make a huge bonus for any party that has no trusts or NPC's! Make a bonus for doing this vs Incredibly Tough mobs that way if I can (and I can) get 6 friends together to have actual skill based parties again, we'll level up at a rate comparable to the noob easy mode ways people are currently leveling up with. You could remove the XP penalty as Urat suggested AND add a bonus for killing IT mobs with no trusts/npc's. At least 1k bonus for every IT mob killed. I think that would make the old parties viable again.

I understand what billy and other's have said in this thread. I understand there's A LOT that goes with new content and people expectations etc. It's just that it isn't necessary to ruin the old ways of leveling to introduce the new ones.

Lots of MMO's do this and it's ok. I'm not a hater. I love SE and FFXI. SE/FFXI could be completely revolutionary tho by being the only game to not have ruined all the original fun of a MMO through the introduction of good end game content. Well they've already ruined it (no offense) but they'd still be revolutionary for going back and bringing life back to the original party systems. I have faith in the intelligence of SE so it's confusing why they can't just do this to breathe life into the original content and leveling systems.

As far as I can tell a lot of that could be done with simple algorithm/xp factor boosts.

BUT PLEASE: Let's not talk about nerfing. Lots of time people start using the N word when they aren't happy. Let's NOT nerf the new stuff. I don't want to p*ss people off at all.

Am I the only one that sees this as a super simple fix for a super big "issue" in the game?

Add a bonus that will make people want to have lvl 10 dunes parties vs VT and IT mobs again, and qufim, kazam, crawlers nest, cape terigan, and the other places that i can't remember the names. The old school parties fighting IT mobs and needing to bring their A game could come back with out messing up the new awesome updates. With level sync it would be easy to get people in 6 person parties vs IT mobs again if all the xp factors were adjusted or boosted some how.

I've been saying this for years. Quit playing FFXI after playing it (with two paid accounts active) for 9 years because the old stuff is ruined. I have one active account now and am playing again. I'm not giving up on the new or hating on it this time, but it really could easily be adjusted and it would increase the lifespan of the game, and longevity of each individual players commitment to FFXI and SE.

Thanks to anyone who reads this, thanks to the OP, and to everyone who replied/replies.

EDIT: Well considering my friends are getting (as we speak) 6k xp PER KILL (!!!) in marjami, maybe we'd need more than a 1k bonus to IT mob kills with no trust! A little yellow text could flash when u kill an IT mob, or it could happen on VT/IT chains. Maybe 1k bonus to the first vt/it mob, then 1.5k for the chain 1, all the way up to 6k bonus for chain 6+?

PLEASE!

[Catmato]

EDIT: Well considering my friends are getting (as we speak) 6k xp PER KILL (!!!) in marjami, maybe we'd need more than a 1k bonus to IT mob kills with no trust! A little yellow text could flash when u kill an IT mob, or it could happen on VT/IT chains. Maybe 1k bonus to the first vt/it mob, then 1.5k for the chain 1, all the way up to 6k bonus for chain 6+?

With that kind of exp, you'd be out of the dunes in a few minutes. I'm all for incentivizing old-style exp parties, but more exp isn't the way to do it.

[Krishnaya]

then what is the way to do it? Urat was productive, and I'm productive/constructive in any criticism we give, but u give no alternate in ur post. I only point this out because I'm interested in what you say is "the way to do it". k Really... please tell me... what is the way to do it if not more XP? I'd rather smash thru dunes lvl 10-20 in 4-8 hours fighting IT mobs than doing some noob no skill WOW way of levelling.... What's ur way?

Dunes was just one, earliest ever, part of it. The subject matter I'm speaking of includes all the old lvling spots from lvl 10-75, not just dunes. We can talk about dunes all day if u want. I'm down. Dunes is part of it and is also remediable tho its so extremely 2003. That makes it a great example of what we're talking about tho imho, but let's just not get confused and think that dunes is the whole subject matter. It's all the OG gameplay that used to happen to get from lvl 10-75 that's missing. I can see why the new updates make sense for the awesome FFXI end game and how they give life and longevity to the game. The new updates are genius! GENIUS! In fact if someone tried to counter those updates by implementing any kind of nerf it could be catastrophic for the current playerbase and thus FFXI itself. That's not necessary tho, both can be viable/coexist. It's good that there's other options to level and level quick if u want. For the longevity of FFXI that's good. But, adding options for the earlier expansions and gameplay to remain viable will add additional longevity to FFXI as well. Win/Win! Why win/loose when u can just as easy win/win?

I've mentioned previously that I think there's actually many possible ways to address this issue because it's kind of, more or less, a tiny code/algorith/xp boost update to fix. Easy fix. There's many ways it could happen. I mentioned the best one I thought of (subjectively as it is and as objective as I can be) and I also gave props to Urat for mentioning another possible solution. Perhaps the fact that there's so many easy solutions to the problem has over complicated it to the widely variegated team of devs?

I'm glad others are at least finally recognizing the issue that some of us are trying to talk about. What's the best solution???

Thanks

EDIT: What is the way to reward skill based parties with out too much AI help (trusts and NPC followers specifically), and keep the new players happy and NOT nerf the new ways??

I INSIST it's possible to keep the new stuff 100% intact/not discourage or push away new players AND breathe life into the older SKILL based play styles. I'm open to other ideas of how to do it though because there's many ways.

EDIT#2: You are right... Dunes PT's would end quick if my simple one second solution (it really is that easy tho) was implemented with out any kind of scaling or area/level considerations. But there's 2 quick responses I can give to that...

1 is that even a simple solution adds viable options again. If a level/etc. based mathematical consideration wasn't made per each area, then yes dunes would go quick... But would lvl 10-20 go quicker than it goes now? I think not. And it would slow down after dunes (qufim, kazam, nest, and so on). Hey maybe the fact it wouldn't do that much is good. It won't interfere with the new updates. By the time u did get to qufim, kazam, and nest tho, the leveling could slow down.

2 is that well it could scale if an extra day of thought/programming was put into finding ways to make 10-75 have viable OG leveling options similar to the speed (but preferably a little slower still) of new areas/styles.

There's so many ideas of how fast dunes/qufim/nest/ETC!!! should go, but there's also lots of ways to make it comparable to the new things.

My opinion is at dunes lvl 10-20 should take 12-20 hours with a good skill based party fighting IT mobs. If u disagree... Thats totally ok. Dunes is just a small part anyways. Just say ur opinion of how things could be adjusted. Any good adjustment made with this basic principle in mind will be a benefit to the players and devs of FFXI equally. A team of people thinking about this could come up with a great idea, but any thoughtful (i mean to say smart) person can by him/herself come up with a very good idea. Either way (a good or great idea) is better than no idea.

I want some kind of adjustment but i'm open to so many different possible ways it could happen.

[Krishnaya]

double post sorry

[Catmato]

If I had a good solution, I would have posted it. Instead, I'll just post anything that comes to mind.

In a 6-man exp party with no trusts:
Have a RoE that rewards Copper Vouchers
Give extra Conquest Points
Give free Accolades
Give free Sparks
Give free Tabs
Reward with Gil
Mobs drop more Seals
Mobs drop Dynamis currency
A Water Spirit comes to help you
Mobs drop Alexandrite
Mobs drop Plutons/Beitetsu/Boulders
Mobs drop HP Bayld
Princess Claidie dances for you in a bikini
Your fame goes up in that region
Lowers BSTs Ready cooldown to 5 seconds
Always have 3000 tp
Every mob killed makes Besieged start 1 minute earlier
SE continues console support until 2048
Free beer delivered to your house
Your other jobs delevel so you have something else to sync to
NMs spawn in place of exp mobs
Everyone on your blacklist gets banned
50 DKP-
Crafting skills randomly go up
Infinite ammo
Zeid dances for you in a bikini
Mobs drop relics
Mobs steal your relics
Augments are applied to the gear you're wearing
Can use Blue Magic on any job
Your flowers don't wilt
More Monstrosity monsters will be released


I think I'm about out of ideas.

[Kensagaku]

I get what you're asking for Krish, but if we're getting 6k EXP/kill when chained (and chains frequently went to 3-6 unless you had to rest MP or someone died), you'd be out of the dunes in less than an hour, and the other places equally so. There's really not much difference from a full Trust party and a full normal player party now when it comes to leveling, except for the fact you can pick and choose your jobs instead of shouting/arguing for hours about finding a paladin, bard, and white mage until someone has to leave and the whole party falls apart. Well, that and the fact that people are (generally, with exceptions) smarter than the AI of Trusts. You could party up with a Trust group, and they gain skills and learn abilities at the same rate as any other player. Really aside from the lack of conversations there's not a lot of difference, but that's what a linkshell is for, whether it's social or endgame or whatever.

As an example I leveled my mule's RDM "the hard way," because it was a way to kill time and it was rather enjoyable to do so. I hit up a bunch of different camps going from the dunes to Sea Serpent Grotto's entrance to Crawler's Nest by the big drop-down room to The Boyhada Tree. But to me this was a lot better than the times of old party leveling, where you'd spend three hours waiting for someone who wanted to play PLD or NIN or RDM or BRD, and then by then your party has reshuffled itself five times over. By the time you got to camp someone else was already having to leave, forcing you to restart again, etc... and this was back when EXP was in its heyday!

Now you can literally just get up and go where you choose to. Does it have to be solo+trusts? No, bring a friend, or three! EXP, even with friends to "lower the EXP gain," is still faster than it used to be back then, and if you're arguing for old-school leveling and 10+ hours in the dunes, then nothing really needs to change. But the way you make the argument sound is that you still want to race up to the 99 cap, rather than enjoying the old leveling process, if the "I want to hit up to 6k EXP like in Adoulin areas" argument is any indication. If you want to slow down and enjoy the moment of old-school leveling, then do so, and don't be in such a hurry to get to 99.

[Krishnaya]

I get what you're asking for Krish, but if we're getting 6k EXP/kill when chained (and chains frequently went to 3-6 unless you had to rest MP or someone died), you'd be out of the dunes in less than an hour, and the other places equally so.

You're telling me in the new area's it only takes an hour to level from level 10-20? Well can SE make it take like 4-8 hours (depending on PT skill) to get from lvl 10-20 with no trusts and greatly increase rewards such as beastman seals? Please see catmato's second post, Cat has great ideas. Urat also mentioned great ideas. There really is a good way to work this out I think.

But when there's only 99 level to grind through, why does it have to be as quick as 5 mobs per level? Only 250 mobs to get to level 50? Why? Should be 1000 or 2000. I wouldn't mind a slight (or large) nerf to this, but i'm trying to come up with ideas not including nerfing because I know that causes commotion in a gaming community. As i said cat and urat have great ideas too. I will try to wait til someone responds to their ideas before i post more of my own ideas.

There's really not much difference from a full Trust party and a full normal player party now when it comes to leveling, except for...

It's the skill players developed by playing against IT mobs in a 6 person party that's completely lacking. And the challenge of doing that most of all. Skill chains used to be required in any GOOD party. I'm trying to find/talk about a way to make 6 person parties rewarding again. If not by adjusting XP factors, what about things more along the line of what Cat said? I think there must be some way to adjust XP factors but there's a lot of possibilities. Why not something in the middle or rather a mix of all these ideas?

Really aside from the lack of conversations there's not a lot of difference, but that's what a linkshell is for, whether it's social or endgame or whatever.

I love my linkshell for the social and endgame, but if there were appealing rewards for leveling the old way then I could also ask my LS mates to PT with me, and a good LS has people with all dif job types and has a good enough relationship to usually not argue about things.

I'm starting to like Cats ideas a lot. What about taking away 50% of the XP reduction gotten by having multiple players AND adding some extra beast seals etc? I'm sure I could get full parties together regularly to level the old way and develop real skill (even with the new ways still being just as OP as they are now) if the xp was less nerfed with 6 people but was rewarding. Preferably a little bit slower still than the fastest newest ways of leveling.

But to me this was a lot better than the times of old party leveling, where you'd spend three hours waiting for someone who wanted to play PLD or NIN or RDM or BRD

I agree with you first of all! Keep the new leveling systems in tact so that's still possible, but give a reward for full 6 people parties. But I NEVER in my time had that problem because in my group of friends, mostly linkshell friends, we had a few tanks and healers. I had both and switched between the two as my friends needed.

Now you can literally just get up and go where you choose to. Does it have to be solo+trusts? No, bring a friend, or three! EXP, even with friends to "lower the EXP gain," is still faster than it used to be back then, and if you're arguing for old-school leveling and 10+ hours in the dunes, then nothing really needs to change.

Good points for sure. I thought it took longer than 10 hours, because, when I joined in 2003, it took a week to get through dunes. If u want me to say specific times I would argue for (though i'm trying to keep it simple and basic rather than specific) dunes to take like 5 hours lvl 10-20 and increase BST drops for no TRUSTS. Again, maybe Cat's ideas are best.

If it does take ten hours though maybe the XP factors don't need to be changed much at all (i still think some of the XP reduction should be removed from extra players at this point). The thing that would need to be changed is for there to be a reward that convinces people who don't remember the old ways of leveling to at least give it a try with any older players, or anyone wanting to test their skills.

But the way you make the argument sound is that you still want to race up to the 99 cap, rather than enjoying the old leveling process, if the "I want to hit up to 6k EXP like in Adoulin areas" argument is any indication. If you want to slow down and enjoy the moment of old-school leveling, then do so, and don't be in such a hurry to get to 99.

Awesome, you're bringing it home for me, making it personal. I can explain...

I absolutely am NOT in a rush to level to 99. I'd be ok with it taking just as long before, but I know most people are not ok with that. The worst part of the old leveling system is indeed solved by the trusts. The worst part was spending hours sometimes looking for a certain job. Now there's level sync although it's not used any more since the trusts. But still level sync is there and I know I could get groups of people together to sync if there was some kind of reward for that.

I just miss the challenge of the game and the skills players used to develop while leveling their jobs more than anything though. Add rewards for no trusts parties. Something to make it maybe not as fast as the new ways but rewarding somehow. Make people give it a try again is all.

Kensagaku has very intelligently pointed out that negating the XP reduction from PT members would make the old ways just as fast as the new! That would be sad actually, but the problem now is not so many people even wanna try. What about reducing the amount of XP loss from multiple players instead of negating it and adding other incentives?

I'd prefer it to be just as slow as the old way, but I'd be ok with it being a bit faster and incentives being added. What ever gets more people to try. My LS mates talk about how they wish this as well.

I speak from this perspective as someone who just grinded Bst 1-99 with his GF, and we did it the semi oldschool way.

Did you fight VT-IT mobs? That's what it used to be all about. Actually my parties were usually more in the IT-IT++ range than the VT-IT, but even bad parties werent interested in anything less than VT back in the day.

[#1]Being in a party doesnt reduce exp. Instead, you get a 5% exp bonus for every party member you have that is a PC that is the same level as you or lower.

Done. 25% exp bonus if you have a full party, but leachers cannot get the exp bonus. This promotes level synch (which makes everyone the same level so you all get the 25% bonus) and makes leachers fall farther and farther behind
#2: Inflict a severe exp penalty on players in the following circumstances:

-Being below level 70 in Abyssea (-90% penalty)
-Being less than 10 levels below the level of the monster killed (-90% exp penalty)
-Being less than 10 levels below the recommend level of a Grounds of Valor or Fields of Valor quest (-95% penalty)
-Being less than level 75 and turning in an Adoulin Coalition Imprimatur (-90% penalty)

As it stands, extreme power levelling is infinitely faster than normal levelling of any kind and, most importantly, enables cheaters, botters, and the few RMT that exist, to grind themselves back up to level whatever in an hour.

Wow these are great ideas. Really.

Without a way to forcibly cap your level, old-school xp parties are dead and not coming back.

What do you mean forcibly cap your level? There's level sync, but I'm not sure what you mean.




Another idea:

Add an XP reduction for trusts. What kind of a reduction could be up for discussion. I could come up with 10 different ways to do that. Some would include only a certain amount to nerf trusts, and some would combine doing that with, at least to some degree, reducing the XP loss by having multiple people.

Maybe the best thing to do would to be make the XP reduction equal for trusts and players. I'd prefer to do this by fully implementing the same/current XP reduction gotten from player party members onto trusts. If that's displeasing to others though, there's lots of other possibilities. IE: Make trust XP loss and player XP loss equal but not as bad as the old way?

There's way to mix this with Urat's most recent (and really good) 2 suggestions, and Cat's ideas, and my ideas. There's ways to do it for sure that will benefit the longevity of FFXI and it's playerbase.