Classic server, what's the argument against it now?

[nekroturkey]

Typically, whenever the subject of a classic server is brought up, there are two main points against it:

1. It takes away development time from the main servers.

2. Who would want to play on a server that would never get updated?

Once November hits, neither of these points will be valid anymore. So with that in mind, what would be the harm in releasing a single classic server for those that want one? After doing some research, there appears to be plenty of interest in the idea of classic servers for older MMOs:

1. Everquest

• Currently in the process of releasing a progression server in 2015.
  http://massivelyop.com/2015/02/23/ev...ression-server

Edit: Trailer for the progression server:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YOL...ature=youtu.be

• Daybreak have entered into an official agreement with Project 1999.
  https://www.everquest.com/news/project-1999-daybreak

2. Lineage 2

• Classic server to be officially announced on May 21st.
  https://eu.4game.com/lineage2classic/

Edit: May 21st, official announcement:
https://4gameforum.com/threads/linea...is-next.26645/

Dear friends!

We all made quite some work. After this month we have 16555 votes, and it is a little bit more than our initial goal. That is great! I bet you all want to know what happens next, and here it is: we've started working towards opening the server. As you can imagine, it involves a lot of preparation, discussion, testing and other complicated stuff which we cannot talk about in details. There is still a risk that the project won't be launched if the circumstances are not in our favour. We appreciate your efforts and your involvement in this project. You've shown your desire to see Lineage 2 Classic in Europe, and it means a lot for us. Stay tuned, updates on the project will be posted on the forum as soon as we have them.

3. Darkfall Online

• Aventurine have recently announced their intentions of bringing back the original Darkfall Online, alongside their current Unholy Wars release.
  https://forums.darkfallonline.com/sh...=1#post6502284

As for determining what state the classic server would be set in, since the notion of "classic" differs from person to person, a community vote could be held. Similar to the Everquest progression server, whatever state gets the most votes would determine the ruleset of that server.

[Roja323]

And what would you do if people voted for classic as abyssea era?

1) all 3 of those games still have expansions/are still supported
2) there arent enough people who would do it
3) whats the appeal of going back to 75 era where whole link shells spend years getting 1 person a relic/mythic?

[nekroturkey]

And what would you do if people voted for classic as abyssea era?

Easy, because Abyssea wouldn't be an option. It was a product made by Matsui and the new development team when they raised the level cap. "Classic" would encompass everything from Tanaka-era.

1) all 3 of those games still have expansions/are still supported

And so is FFXI, for the time being.

2) there arent enough people who would do it

Beg to differ, but then again, neither of us can really give concrete numbers on the amount of people interested in a classic server. The only way to know for sure would be to hold a community poll.

3) whats the appeal of going back to 75 era where whole link shells spend years getting 1 person a relic/mythic?

Doesn't matter if you personally don't see the appeal, but many people still do. If you prefer the way the game currently plays, then play on the main servers, and let the people that prefer the classic gameplay play on the classic servers.

[Dekoda]

Easy, because Abyssea wouldn't be an option. It was a product made by Matsui and the new development team when they raised the level cap. "Classic" would encompass everything from Tanaka-era.

Abyssea came out in June 2010. Matsui wasn't Producer then, he wasn't even Director yet. Easily encompasses "Tanaka-era", since he didn't leave until 2012.

[bungiefanNA]

Progression servers generally mean that they start the game over without expansions, and then roll through the content releases a bit faster than the original release schedule, so you go through 10 years of updates in 1-2 years. It lets people see how the game changed over time , and keeps old content relevant for a while for everyone again. If they wanted to do a static server that won't progress past a certain point, you have the question of where to draw the line, and what QoL changes to backport to compensate if the server population is too low. Would you really want to go without Level Sync, or Records of Eminence objectives at least giving guidance on where to find things? What about Trial of the Magians actually giving visible and meaningful progression towards useful equipment? This is a very complicated issue, when the focus of the staff now is reducing expenses.

[nekroturkey]

If they wanted to do a static server that won't progress past a certain point, you have the question of where to draw the line, and what QoL changes to backport to compensate if the server population is too low.

Importing QoL changes wouldn't exactly make it classic anymore, but there's been a steady interest in the old-school MMO niche for awhile now. Project 1999 consistently has 1500+ active players at any given time, which was the average amount back during this game's golden era. 15,000 people have already signed the petition for a Lineage 2 classic server. Seems reasonable to assume that there's enough interest to support a single classic server for a game that has a much larger population than either of those games.

Would you really want to go without Level Sync, or Records of Eminence objectives at least giving guidance on where to find things?

Yes.

This is a very complicated issue, when the focus of the staff now is reducing expenses.

What about player retention and revenue; the potential a classic server could have on bringing people into the game, both new and old? A Darkfall developer had this to say when questioned about the decision to bring back Darkfall 1.0:

http://i.imgur.com/BFBSxzT.png

If they keep it to forum users only, then only current players could do it, and having to pay to vote is a bad thing.

Bad thing for whom? I can't imagine many pro-classic server players would mind paying to have their voice heard, if there was the slight possibility of having a classic server. It definitely wouldn't be a bad thing for Square either. Either way, if they held a community poll to gauge interest in having a classic server, good or bad, we'd finally have a definitive answer. So what's the harm?

Not like it costs anything to have a forum poll. In fact, it would probably generate enough buzz to make the headlines of some websites and forums, and you know what they say about publicity.

[bungiefanNA]

Also, holding a community poll would be a hassle, if on these forums. You have to have an active FFXI Content ID to post here, or have had one in the past and not have your cookie expire. If they open it to the public, Reddit could troll it. If they keep it to forum users only, then only current players could do it, and having to pay to vote is a bad thing.

[Alhanelem]

The same argument as before: It would divide an already small population even further, with no guarantees it would bring more players back. Also, the nostalgia filter just doesn't live up in reality. We look back at the good old days and remember the fun we had, but it's just not the same. Further, nobody wants to roll back their character years and years, as much fun as they might think a classic server would be. The only people who would really win here are those who haven't played in years and years, and if you're one of those people, the probability is very high you've already moved on and wouldn't come back because something newer is occupying your time.

Finally, there's the "we don't want to spend the money" and such that SE would say if they actually responded to this. They don't even want to invest in the work required to be able to continue developing content updates after the death of their PS2 hardware. This would be a really hard sell to them.

What about player retention and revenue; the potential a classic server could have on bringing people into the game,

This would have virtually no impact on player retention, because the peopel playing now are playing because they're happy with the game in its current state. I don't know anyone who's only playing because they're hoping a classic server will become a thing if they keep paying SE long enough. The game is not big enough for a classic server to have real likelyhood of generating significant extra revenue.

There is a virtually 0% chance that a classic server would bring in *new* players. The game has a reputation, and most of that reputation comes from its earlier years- Current MMO players would find classic XI's grind torturous, its cryptic quests (and lack of rewards within) frustrating, etc. That's not to say we didn't like it back then, but the dynamics of the industry have irreversibly changed; nobody wants to play a game as slow as XI was back in the day. It would certianly be a nice thing for old time players looking to scratch an itch. But that's a pretty small number of people.

I'm not saying in any way that the concept of the classic server is a bad thing in and of itself: I'm only saying why it most likely wouldn't happen. SE, if they've ever even looked at the idea, probably think the result wouldn't be worth the investment.

What works for one game won't necessairly work for another; just because this or that game made a classic server and got something out of it, doesn't mean it will work for another.

[nekroturkey]

The same argument as before: It would divide an already small population even further, with no guarantees it would bring more players back.

Further, nobody wants to roll back their character years and years, as much fun as they might think a classic server would be. The only people who would really win here are those who haven't played in years and years, and if you're one of those people, the probability is very high you've already moved on and wouldn't come back because something newer is occupying your time.

You're contradicting yourself a bit. You said in your opening sentence that it would divide the population, but now you're saying that no one would be interested?

Also, the nostalgia filter just doesn't live up in reality. We look back at the good old days and remember the fun we had, but it's just not the same.

You're assuming nostalgia would be the only driving factor. Some people believe the game was genuinely better back then, myself and more than half my shell included. Besides, numbers don't lie. Classic and progression servers have shown to be hugely successful.

Finally, there's the "we don't want to spend the money" and such that SE would say if they actually responded to this.

Any response would be better than no response, but supposition.

This would have virtually no impact on player retention, because the peopel playing now are playing because they're happy with the game in its current state. I don't know anyone who's only playing because they're hoping a classic server will become a thing if they keep paying SE long enough.

Supposition again. I've been subbing for a few months now, and I would jump at the chance to play on a classic server. Most of my friends quit once Abyssea came out, but would return if they introduced a classic server.

The game is not big enough for a classic server to have real likelyhood of generating significant extra revenue.

Yes it is, there are currently more people playing this than there are playing Darkfall and NA/EU Lineage 2. Yet those games can manage to have classic servers.

There is a virtually 0% chance that a classic server would bring in *new* players. The game has a reputation, and most of that reputation comes from its earlier years- Current MMO players would find classic XI's grind torturous, its cryptic quests (and lack of rewards within) frustrating, etc. That's not to say we didn't like it back then, but the dynamics of the industry have irreversibly changed; nobody wants to play a game as slow as XI was back in the day. It would certianly be a nice thing for old time players looking to scratch an itch. But that's a pretty small number of people.

Virtually 0%? This is total supposition, backed by your own personal feelings. I respect your opinion, but I'm going to need evidence to support what you're saying.

What works for one game won't necessairly work for another.

Then why is every MMO under the sun copying Warcraft? FFXIV included. Square have shown that they're willing to copycat things that are successful.

[Bluestar2kx]

Virtually 0%? This is total supposition, backed by your own personal feelings. I respect your opinion, but I'm going to need evidence to support what you're saying.

Then why is every MMO under the sun copying Warcraft? FFXIV included. Square have shown that they're willing to copycat things that are successful.

It's not quite 0%, but it is very small.
Most of the people a classic 75 era server would entice back is the old vets who left years ago due to aby. And they likely wouldn't stay very long because half left that age because they were bored, the other half left because they were bored and didn't like how aby changed things, and the new CoD crowd that was trying the game, granted, you can't get away from those people, they're a dime a dozen on the net now, and they don't care about you or what you need or the alliance, their out for themselves, that would be FFXI's influx group, and getting 18-32 people to cooperate was hard back then, imagine doing it with a few dozen entitled every wo(man) for themselves attitude gamers have these days?

The odds of having any sort of new player influx are extremely low, you might get some players, a few thousand at first, trickling down to few hundred maybe over 6 months on such a server, but nothing that could sustain such a server for long. The reason being several parts (in addition to the above), 1: the engine. Most of the complaints I hear from people who've not tried XI or thought about it but decided against it, are over the graphics being too dated to play, part of why XIV has such a big emphasis on beauty, but lacks in so many other areas I bet my fellows here could help me write a book about it.

2: MMO's are dying. They partly because old ones are running their course due to lack of interest by new and old players, they've been out so long that only the die hard fans still play consistently with but a few new players. But the biggest reason is your last point: "Every MMO under the sun is copying WoW." And if you notice, 90% of the games that do are effectively failures, they go F2P within a year, and effectively die within 2years, because they're nothing new, they're the same rehashes and their too easy, there's no investment in these MMO's at all, no reason to stay, so players don't, this is why WoW dropped 3m subs just after an expansion pack.

But the additional problem is, except korean mmo's there's nothing in the western portfolio that has that sort of value, esp long term, so MMO's are dying across the board as players become less and less interested in them. This same problem is starting to crop up in mainstream gaming too. Mobile games are struggling to hold players, AAA titles are slowly declining from most of the major houses with but few exceptions, because their all the same thing, and they all lack a reward for time investment (or don't have time investment at all) why do you think tougher games are starting to get more attention? Even korean MMO's are starting to get more attention then their western counterparts. I know many XIV players are they say the same as we hear in every other modern MMO: There's nothing to do, there's nothing worth staying for.

Nothing lasts forever, esp in the MMO world.

3: MMO's put so much focus into the easy fast grind that WoW taught us and that favors the rapid risers in order to keep them interested, that they've forgotten their main income comes from those who are average or casual players, and there's nothing for them. The rapid risers to cap are always done in a few months, partly because the way up is so easy and simple, and partly because they like it, but they make up a small portion of the average player base of an MMO. Average players and more casual players make up the bulk, but they have so little to do but level because there's nothing to do other then that because the game caters to those who hit cap in a couple weeks.

True FFXI is one of those games, as are several others such as EQ, that have survived the ages, but as I said, it's aging, and due to it's original design, SE can't keep it updating as is for much longer without going back and re-writing half the game, which would cost a lot more then it takes to run it, and likely would increase those costs afterwards that the game isn't able to bring in, or isn't likely to bring in even with a new influx of players, because getting the word out would require a marketing campaign and those costs millions more on top of rebuilding the game even if they used XIV's engine and worked it up for FFXI.

A campaign to upgrade FFXI like that would need to bring subs up to around 500-600k+ to get SE to be willing to put in the money (likely closer to a million), and nobody can promise, or expect, even a 1/4th of that, because there's just not enough players left with interest in MMO's, and esp not old ones with a face lift. True, a classic server might entice some people if XI got updated, but you'd again have the old problem of: Losing so much content, and could FFXI's extreme grind from the old days push people away again? MMO's these days can't swing to far one way of the other, towards extreme grind, nor towards very easy, it requires a balance, one FFXI is about as close to as we can get, only now. If you take that away, you run back into the same problem that started all of this years ago.

i just don't see a classic server working.
Maybe it works fine for those private groups, who can be more particular about who's in the game then SE can, but the odds of it working large scale on public servers, are very small, as is the long term interest group. I would give it, at most, 3 months before the classic server started to fail on itself, and that's not really enough to warrant the expense. This thread is up to 17 pages, and I'd bet most of it is the same small group of people arguing, which lends credit to this not being a good idea.

The only way to truly determine interest is a poll SE sends through our account emails for all FFXI account holders, and see what happens.
But I can't foresee that giving results interested groups here are seeking, and certainly not enough to give SE pause.