Dragoon Shortcomings

[Helldemon]

Playing devil's advocate here, but the answer is because DRG's DPS is much, much higher than either SMN or BST without a pet. BST's melee is subpar and they have literally no abilities that enhance their own damage. SMN is absolutely worthless without a pet, they have no spells other than summons. DRG wields the second highest base DMG weapon in the game, has extremely good gear, has Jumps which, even when nerfed without a Wyvern being alive, are still a DPS gain, and Stardiver is pretty damn good.

Problem is when DRG's wyvern is alive, we are >SO< good, but if we die from a strong attack, no matter how much HP or durability the Wyvern has, it will die as soon as we do, thus its fragility is based on our fragility. They tried to re-mediate this by increasing the Dragoon's HP/Parry/Evasion a few years ago, but while this helped marginally for moderate content, end game bosses will still instantly kill a Dragoon in a single TP move if not stunned, we can still die instantly to Death or receive a Doom effect that we cannot remove in time and thus our DPS is totally garbage for up to 20 minutes, while other DPS jobs can just be raised and be back at full strength in 3-5minutes.

Bst has a couple things going for them as a DD w/o a pet, stronger ws then ours, 5 times the acc we have provided they get enough to cap. Jumps w/o wyvern are meh. Plenty of times the wait from using the JA prevented me from being able to self SC when I would have otherwise if I had not jumped and that was with wyvern out. I almost never use them w/o a wyvern unless I'm weakened/trying to not get hit with AoE. Drg survivability needs to be boosted quite a bit if they won't reduce the timer because even with our wyvern we are not any better then other jobs at full strength and none of those jobs become completely useless for nearly an entire event just because they die once. It's bad enough plenty of jobs have a single JP that is better then all ten of drg's combined. Our last JP could have been good if it had been per wyvern lvl boosted but instead it was only one level of boost. 40 atk/def is nothing these days. Maybe if they had added 2 acc to that per lvl, it could have been a great jp. They didn't though and it's pretty terrible but sadly it's the 2nd one I'm working on because our jp selection is just that bad.

Wyvern durability would not need to be nerfed if we got a ten minute timer, 5-7 minutes is still quite crippling in a timed event like SR or Vagary. If they want to get us a 5 min timer then ya I would agree on taking it back to what it was but I would be happy to have a compromise, ten minutes vs five and keeping durability.

If SE insist on not changing our call wyvern timer or boosting our ability to survive then the benefits we get from having our wyvern need to be largely boosted. That 20% atk/def boost needs to be 40% the 10% haste needs to be 20% we also need 10% acc boost from that as well. Maybe a 10% MDB/MEVA boost too. No other job can be crippled even remotely as bad as drg w/o our pet so the buffs need to match this.

I wonder if we should be making a new thread on this since this thread was already responded to and basically refused. Do they even bother to keep paying attention to it?

[Syrrus]

As a capped Job Points DRG, my wyvern gives me approximately 250 Attack and Defense as well as 15% Double Attack. However, when activating Spirit Surge I lose all of my JP related bonuses and Wyvern "EXP" benefits.

I can't think of another job that has such a penalty to using a One-Hour ability.

Losing our wyvern as an activation cost to Spirit Surge is too much. Perhaps losing the wyvern after Spirit Surge ends or resetting Call Wyvern similar to the jump timers would help mitigate this extreme penalty.

[Glamdring]

YYB, here's the thing, I tend to think when developing jobs for balance they do an equation where all jobs are to add up to 1000 points +/- 50 points-note the point numbers are arbitrary, for all I know the actual total for a naked 99 is supposed to 33,745 +/-2,213. on that scale they use a set of values for different aspects of the job like durability, DPS, buffing, debuffing, healing, etc.; somehow sub-jobs are factored into that as well. then potential yield assuming 100% efficiency on your button mashing is used for all traits to achieve an aggregate score for a naked player. once they have THAT within tolerances they start in with gear combinations to see that proportionally all jobs maintain within the same range up to top tier equipment (although I believe we have all seen clearly there is some error in their methodology for that gear evaluation). But that methodology is severely inadequate when a portion of that yield is based on a pet and I don't think they have a clue how to get their equation to balance.

with dragoon it's magnified even over the other pet jobs because of the extremely limited control of the pet by the player, i.e. the pet will only attack when the player does, cannot be forcibly disengaged to heal outside combat range, does not self heal and yes, has extremely limited tools for the player to heal it coupled with the longest recall time of all pet jobs. and while healing breath-especially with gear-is some of the best healing in the game offensive output is severely lacking from the pet, the ability to take a hit and now with the limited hate for damage inflicted the wyvern is likely to take hate by virtue of that HB use when it lacks the defense to cope with the consequences of the hate. it's unrealistic to expect the player to only use HB when Superjump is up as well as Spirit Link because if they hold for that they are not fulfilling their role in the party, even soloing it is lacking in performance because of that.

I don't know if they've just given up because they can't make their evaluation criteria work or it requires the use of half values to put in changes but the code doesn't accept fractional values or what. I mean I have to assume they know what they are doing for the most part; after all, drg has in several of its incarnations worked just fine, but this is clearly NOT one of those incarnations.

[Ophannus]

They definitely don't use an equation to calculate DPS to balance jobs. If they did, I would be surprised and almost guarantee it's a new schema. 2004-2008 was the era of extreme unbalanced gameplay. WAR/SAM/NIN/MNK were extremely good for almost all content, NIN/DRK, RDM/NIN and BRD/NIN nvalidated PLD tanks, RDM invalidated WHM healing, DRG BST PUP THF were trash DPS jobs with HUGE flaws, not things that could be fixed with minor adjustments--these jobs were poorly thought out and they must've had tunnel vision moving forward.

DRG had teeny-weeny fixes here and there, but really, the way DRG is currently--is how it should have been from day 1. After thousands of posts from my self and tens of thousands of posts from everyone else in the DRG community, we finally got decent changes, but it took over a decade of complaining, brainstorming and forum posting(i've been posting for DRG fixes back since 2004 if you were to check the history of the allakhazam forum) and it's absurd. I don't know the FFXI team is on such a high horse and is so obstinate it takes them years to implement changes that the community has wanted forever. The FFXIV dev team is so fast and onboard with fixes balance issues from patch to patch. There's a few hiccups but in general, there's really no terrible jobs, and if there are, it's situational. The FFXIV team is not much larger than the FFXI team was back in its heyday, yet, the FFXI team had this community/developer barrier where they were extremely resistant to change, and they never validate us.

I must've seen hundreds of posts from people on forums saying how poor Call Wyvern was as a SP ability, and each post probably represents 20-30 people who share/agree with the view, so really thousands of people believed it was ineffective for HNM fights. Then, when SE finally gave us Spirit Surge, they *barely* acknowledge their lack of foresight by saying in the teaser notes something to the effect of "Although we disagree that DRG's two-hour ability "Call Wyvern" is anything but weak, we feel DRG are slightly behind other jobs when it comes to needing a burst of strong damage in tight spots". So they hedge their confession with "although we disagree", "slightly" and other ways to undermine how the community regards it. Its only now that DRG is several-fold stronger than it ever was, compared to other jobs. But my point is, although I'm happy they fixed it, too little;too late, and I think the design philosophy of SE's FFXI dev team always had this dissociation between community and developers. This is most likely why FFXI steadily declined over the years. Countless updates of making SAM stronger and other jobs weaker...then finally, once the game starts dying, BAM, one-handed weapon upgrades, WS updates, and huge quality of life updates that should have been implemented--AND THAT PEOPLE WERE ASKING FOR back in 2004. I've been playing FFXI for over a decade and just in retrospect, the amount of time I spent lamenting over poor job balance was ridiculous. FFXIV by comparison is closer to perfect balance than FFXI ever way at any point in time, and their dev team actively adapts their game to the players rather than forcing players to adapt to their 'vision'. I know this post won't be translated to the Devs because it's negative and it's slightly denigrating, but it's just an observation from a veteran player. And I'm sure other veteran DRGs would agree with me at how disappointing job balance has been since day 1 and this constant game of tug of war.

[Glamdring]

Oph, the equation reference was to ALL elements of a job, not DPS-there is no way you can look at a bard's DPS and say it's balanced with a Sam's DPS unless you chop off both of the Sam's arms. Best way to demonstrate it is likely Pld, you could drop a piano on a paladin, he's likely just saying "what was that?" as he shrugs off the 5 HP damage he took while he swings at his opponent who says "seriously? what is this, a sissy slap fight?" Conversely, you hit a War with that piano and he's gonna say "what the?! you hit me with a piano!!!" and need his caved in ribs healed, while his opponent says "what the?! he hit me with a piano!" and needs his own ribs tended to. it's more complicated obviously, the pld can cure, has autorefresh, defends well against everything, has multiple hate control means, etc, etc. well every job brings a bunch to the table beyond DPS and base stats that create the aggregate utility of the job, if they didn't how would a bard have ever gotten an invite in the 1st place? because he brings other goodies to the table even if his DPS is to say the least lacking. Problem is, I don't think SE and the playerbase are on the same page as to the relative value of each trait, example, SE places a much higher value on a job's defense, the playerbase could largely care less and just expects healers to curebomb them, even if it does throw hate control into a cocked hat.

As to where drg is now, I still don't think it's there yet. but it's only 1 element that's missing, the ability to keep a wyvern out and alive. your little flapping lizard needs a bit more durability, and a greater means to heal it and/or a means to recall a dead wyvern sooner. as grekumah stated above "the concept of dragoons being strong while they maintain their wyvern". the clear implication is two-fold, a. without the wyvern dragoon is not strong, and thus b. maintaining a wyvern is of paramount importance. so is it too much to ask that the means to maintain one be out there? the rest of what the job can do is fine as is, but no other job is capable of being gimped to half or less effectiveness instantly as dragoon, because if Fluppy gets 1-shot you have no means of recouping that lost effectiveness, all the other pet jobs can get a pet back faster-and most take a hit better-and the rest of the jobs can't be crippled like that short of a K.O. and reraise weakness.

honestly, I think you and I are on the same page here as to the job-although I maintain the key time of job imbalance was from the start of Abyssea until today, maybe before with the release of scholar and its immediate killing of rdm. I do however maintain that an offensive breath wyvern needs its damage output increased dramatically, i.e. it should do as much damage with a breath attack as a defensive wyvern can heal with a Healing Breath. the in between ones should heal and hurt the same, just less than a pure offensive or defensive one. That likely entails increasing the Wyvern's MACC dramatically, or whatever stat controls offensive breath.

these are just my thoughts here. I've been playing since the NA release so I do remember the "good old days" and how they sometimes fell well short of "good"-remember finding a tank for your Dunes party before level sync? I also agree that yes, some of this should have been handled a decade ago, but I think a lot of the problem came with removal of the 75 level cap. it was simply handled too piecemeal. I mean, look at how many minor tweaks they've had to release to try to make pets viable post 75. They were plenty viable AT 75-sure there was a player wish list, but since we were playing pet jobs at 75 it clearly wasn't the major drop off vs. other jobs we saw at 80 and up. Abyssea masked the weakening of pets with Atma that kept them alive when they would have been dead meat anywhere else, but moving to VW showed them as weak in a hurry and it got worse as we moved to 99 and then into ilevels. Frankly, the Dev team just dropped the ball when it came to ALL pets, and they were too timid and unrealistic in their testing using all these minor tweaks spread over a year of updates; as you said, they never had difficulty installing a nuclear weapon on a Sam, so why did pets take so long to address?

[Ophannus]

For the umpteenth time, the problem isn't the Wyvern, it's the master.

My Wyvern is about 3x more durable than I am. He has about 2k HP, has permanent -40% DT, has a 33/tick regen and a full cure every 90 seconds and a 2-3k Stoneskin every few minutes, I also have Dawn Mulsums that cost me 500g to Synth and heal about 1kk per use. Seriously? 90% of the time my Wyvern dies is because I die and when the master dies, the pet is dismissed. Wyvern durability is really really fine and doesn't need anything.

What we need is a way to shorten the recast or an emergency call wyvern for those times where your group makes a mistake in the first 5-6min of a fight or battlefield and your group wipes, and thus as a DRG, you are crippled for the next 15 minutes, and you bring the group's DPS down a large amount until that time comes. I'm not saying give us a 10minute Call Wyvern. I'm not saying give us a Deus Ex Draco. I suggested a few times to make Spirit Surge useable without a Wyvern and when doing so, your Wyvern is called and in a powered up state for 60 seconds. Hell even that last part is unnecessary. If I enter an Incursion or something and we all die on the first pull, I'm crippled for 20minutes. I'd gladly sacrifice my SP1 to bring my Wyvern back. Just give us any other option but waiting 20min, even if it's on a 1hour timer and costs us an SP ability. Or maybe put Spirit Surge under Pet Commands and give it a shared timer with a new DRG SP1 called "Rouse Wyvern" aka our old SP2. If you use Rouse Wyvern, it summons your Wyvern. Or if you have a Wyvern out already, Rouse Wyvern becomes unavailable to use, but if you go to pet commands, right at the top would be Spirit Surge. That way we have a dual purpose SP1 with a variable effect depending on the situation. If you need your wyvern alive? Use Rouse Wyvern, if you need a quick burst of DPS? Use Spirit Surge or Fly High.

So much of DRG's DPS depends on the Wyvern and sometimes the Wyvern dying to Doom/Death(the spell 'Death', or TP move that instantly KO's), or the player dying to Doom/Instant KO completely cripples us.


DRG + Wyvern is not the best DPS job in the game. But other DPS jobs, when they die, they recover to full power once weakness wears off ~3-5minutes. DRG's, even after being Raised and unweakened, do not recover to full power for up to 20 minutes. If DRG was by far the best DPS in the game, it would be a fair tradeoff, but the damage DRG's deal with their Wyvern is not in accordance with how horrible the penalty is for a DRG being KO'd in the first few minutes of an encounter and thus being unavailable for the remainder of the raid.

[YosemiteYogorockBlondelle]

Just thought you may have to be reminded that not everyone can craft Dawn Muslims but there also players who can't afford to buy them from characters bazzars for having them to use for their pets, Just thought you should know but it goes without saying you may already know except don't have a way of knowing that you do know it already!

[Ophannus]

Any culinarian over 96 can craft Dawn Mulsum. The ingredients are ridiculously cheap.

Light Crystal
1x Grape Juice
1x White Honey
1x Holy Water

I must sound like a broken record, but I feel as though the Dev team thinks the issue with DRG is still wyvern surviviability in content. In truth, Wyverns don't die in content anymore, Dragoons die. When Dragoons die, the Wyvern dies. Spirit Link, Steady Wing, 40% Damage Taken, Wyvern's Defense/Evasion/Magic Defense, Dawn Mulsum are all irrelevant. Sometimes the DRG dies because of their own machinations, but what about when the party or healer is poor? If a DRG is doomed and it isn't removed in time, the DRG will die and the Wyvern dies with him. Should DRG's suffer a 20min nerf to their DPS because another player couldn't cure or remove ailments fast enough? I submit, no. Were there a way such that if a DRG is KO'd when the Wyvern is still alive, upon raising, the Wyvern returns, it would fix DRG forever. Alas, if I am not cured fast enough, or we wipe to content and need to retry, my damage is crippled.

Since you said they won't shorten the recast:

Other options:
-Allow Wyvern to return to their master upon being defeated, so long as the Wyvern was still alive before the Dragoon's defeat, and as long as the Dragoon doesn't zone (i.e Return to Homepoint).
-Give us an equivalent of "Deus ex Automata"
-If the Wyvern is KO'd, allow us to use Spirit Surge, which would instead act like a super "Call Wyvern", calling our Wyvern to our side, and invincible to damage for 60seconds, afterwhich it acts like a regular Wyvern pet.
-Shorten Call Wyvern recast to 10minutes.


I feel strongly about giving Spirit Surge an alternate effect depending on if the Wyvern is alive or not because I too strongly disagree about reducing the recast of Call Wyvern to 10 minutes. I think it would obviate the need for all of the buffs Wyverns received to survivability, but I think DRG need a 'second chance' ability which would consume our SP1 to bring back our wyvern. The secondary effect of it would be to make the Wyvern invincible for 60seconds like Rouse Wyvern, our original SP2 did.

When the Wyvern is alive, Spirit Surge adds our Wyvern's strength to our own and increases our Attack, Defense, Haste, Max HP, and STR, while buffing our Jumps.

When the Wyvern is KO'd, Spirit Surge adds our strength to the Wyvern, calling it back to our side, increases its HP/STR/Attack/Accuracy/Haste/Breath Potency/powerful resistance against enfeebling, and gives it a total of -90% damage taken for 60 seconds.

Would be so balanced because Spirit Surge would 1) have a use without a wyvern, 2) be a 'second chance' button to call our wyvern, and 3) allow us to make our wyvern extremely durable for 60 seconds for content where we absolutely need our wyvern to stay alive e.g. if a boss is near death and we need healing breaths, or if the boss is using AoE Death or AoE doom which is extremely hard to remove on Wyverns since Spirit Link is a long recast.

[Catmato]

Would be so balanced because Spirit Surge would 1) have a use without a wyvern, 2) be a 'second chance' button to call our wyvern, and 3) allow us to make our wyvern extremely durable for 60 seconds for content where we absolutely need our wyvern to stay alive e.g. if a boss is near death and we need healing breaths, or if the boss is using AoE Death or AoE doom which is extremely hard to remove on Wyverns since Spirit Link is a long recast.

I think this a great idea, especially the bolded part.

[Martel]

I'd say just leave all Wyvern present and Wyvern exp based bonuses active while Spirit Surge is up. After all, he's with us... in spirit. <,<;