Enough... If you're a paladin then show it. [How to Tank]

[Darka]

What's your point? CE being DMG*1.25, never decaying outside of DMG taken, which for the vast majority of jobs is pretty low due to damage mitigation forms, like Utsusemi, Counterstance, MDT/PDT, whatever. Enmity loss from damage taken is pretty low in the grand scheme of things, and still fast to recover. So the CE loss of 750 is recovered from doing 600 damage, that's like 3-4 crit hits for most jobs, less for others.

You damage/second is off too, 60VE/second is in real time, players don't swing once per second, so it's going to be /focusing/ on the one hitting more often. Even if both are capped. Hence why the problem with PLD isn't capping enmity, it's that other jobs have such potent ways to mitigate damage that they just don't lose enmity.

[Arcon]

What's your point?

Just saying that VE is easier to cap and maintain.

CE being DMG*1.25, never decaying outside of DMG taken, which for the vast majority of jobs is pretty low due to damage mitigation forms, like Utsusemi, Counterstance, MDT/PDT, whatever. Enmity loss from damage taken is pretty low in the grand scheme of things, and still fast to recover. So the CE loss of 750 is recovered from doing 600 damage, that's like 3-4 crit hits for most jobs, less for others.

You damage/second is off too, 60VE/second is in real time, players don't swing once per second, so it's going to be /focusing/ on the one hitting more often. Even if both are capped. Hence why the problem with PLD isn't capping enmity, it's that other jobs have such potent ways to mitigate damage that they just don't lose enmity.

That's debateable, I don't see enmity as paladin's problem at all. Anyone, even mages, can cap and maintain both forms of enmity if they try, PLD is no exception. But why argue that not losing CE is what makes other jobs keep enmity better, when you said that losing enmity is easily restored with a few hits?

All I'm saying is, losing CE is what makes the mob run away, because it takes a few hits to recover. Losing VE is almost instantly recovered. Often not even a second passes, even if you have a higher than 1s delay. And some jobs are capable hitting faster too (most actually).

[Mordanthos]

When shadows absorb dmg, you lose enmity just as if you took dmg. Been proven on the All about enmity thread on some test site. Counter and retaliate dont cause enmity either. So shadows and counters dont help enmity. Shadows actually hurt enmity, where as 0 dmg causes no enmity loss what so ever. And a proper pld is going to be taking 0 dmg 8/10 hits at least at a minimum. IDK wtf you guys have been seeing from paladins, but when i tank i take 0-60 dmg tops from just about anything, and to sit here and say that 450 defense has no difference between 45 defense from counterstance is just the most retarded thing ive heard. Besides, if a paladin has 450 defense, they should delete there character, my defense is 850, and 909 with taco, let me see your faggot mnk take less dmg than my paladin anywhere.. The Tier 4 VNM outside abyssea hits me for 20, i mean come on, let me see your *** mnk survive that T4 VNM for more than 15 seconds. And I shouldn't even be that generous.

[Zagen]

When shadows absorb dmg, you lose enmity just as if you took dmg. Been proven on the All about enmity thread on some test site. Counter and retaliate dont cause enmity either. So shadows and counters dont help enmity. Shadows actually hurt enmity, where as 0 dmg causes no enmity loss what so ever. And a proper pld is going to be taking 0 dmg 8/10 hits at least at a minimum. IDK wtf you guys have been seeing from paladins, but when i tank i take 0-60 dmg tops from just about anything, and to sit here and say that 450 defense has no difference between 45 defense from counterstance is just the most retarded thing ive heard. Besides, if a paladin has 450 defense, they should delete there character, my defense is 850, and 909 with taco, let me see your *** mnk take less dmg than my paladin anywhere.. The Tier 4 VNM outside abyssea hits me for 20, i mean come on, let me see your *** mnk survive that T4 VNM for more than 15 seconds. And i shouldnt even be that generous.

Shadows cost a straight 80CE loss which is nothing like taking damage... At 1300 HP (nice average accounting for all races) that's the same as 57 damage. This is why PLD/NIN is so popular and has been for a long time. I would love to see proof of the contrary, so a link to that "All about enmity thread" would be great.

Also while a counter generates 0 hate, it also loses 0 hate and does more damage to the monster.

I feel the biggest problem with PLD is a lack of understanding how hate works...

I would love to see proof of you taking 0 dmg outside of Sentinel being fresh on anything above Even Match. A parse would be awesome, or even a picture of your chat log showing you taking 0 damage without Sentinel up. Maybe you have Ochain/Aegis but lets be realisitic a PLD shouldn't NEED those to be a "proper" PLD.

Also you should really run tests on how much damage you take with that "weak 450 def" against any NM in Abyssea and then test again with your 850~909 def you'd be sad when you realize that 400+ def doesn't do a whole lot. After all if def was really all that BLU would take the least amount of damage regardless of sub. Then when you realize that MNK with 100 def (if that) with Counterstance up is not only taking around the same amount of damage (usually less since a counter = 0 damage taken) as you but is also dealing more damage from the increased counter rate you'll realize why PLD tank sucks on easy mobs. For other DD jobs being better than PLD on easy to tank mobs look at the damage dealt difference, a WAR/SAM won't take less damage per hit than a PLD but they will kill the monster a hell of a lot faster which means less damage taken over the fight and a decent WHM will be able to keep either one alive which is why WAR/SAM would be a "better" tank, not only will they keep hate and stay alive but they'll kill stuff faster.

PLD sucks on easy to tank monsters, get monsters that aren't gimped by super buffs (hi atma/cruor) are higher level (hi Voidwatch, for now at least) and you have an area where PLD will excel in, other than that face it while PLD is a functional tank on weak monsters it isn't optimal.

[Cursed]

Shadows cost a straight 80CE loss which is nothing like taking damage... At 1300 HP (nice average accounting for all races) that's the same as 57 damage. This is why PLD/NIN is so popular and has been for a long time. I would love to see proof of the contrary, so a link to that "All about enmity thread" would be great.

Also while a counter generates 0 hate, it also loses 0 hate and does more damage to the monster.

I feel the biggest problem with PLD is a lack of understanding how hate works...

I would love to see proof of you taking 0 dmg outside of Sentinel being fresh on anything above Even Match. A parse would be awesome, or even a picture of your chat log showing you taking 0 damage without Sentinel up. Maybe you have Ochain/Aegis but lets be realisitic a PLD shouldn't NEED those to be a "proper" PLD.

Also you should really run tests on how much damage you take with that "weak 450 def" against any NM in Abyssea and then test again with your 850~909 def you'd be sad when you realize that 400+ def doesn't do a whole lot. After all if def was really all that BLU would take the least amount of damage regardless of sub. Then when you realize that MNK with 100 def (if that) with Counterstance up is not only taking around the same amount of damage (usually less since a counter = 0 damage taken) as you but is also dealing more damage from the increased counter rate you'll realize why PLD tank sucks on easy mobs. For other DD jobs being better than PLD on easy to tank mobs look at the damage dealt difference, a WAR/SAM won't take less damage per hit than a PLD but they will kill the monster a hell of a lot faster which means less damage taken over the fight and a decent WHM will be able to keep either one alive which is why WAR/SAM would be a "better" tank, not only will they keep hate and stay alive but they'll kill stuff faster.

PLD sucks on easy to tank monsters, get monsters that aren't gimped by super buffs (hi atma/cruor) are higher level (hi Voidwatch, for now at least) and you have an area where PLD will excel in, other than that face it while PLD is a functional tank on weak monsters it isn't optimal.

sums it up pretty much. I am both a vere mnk and an aegis/ochain pld. Inside Abyssea, MNK is just leagues beyond anything else. PLD is leagues behind.

Outside Abyssea, its nice to solo old content on PLD and be there for when shit hits the fan. But that's about it.\