Enough... If you're a paladin then show it. [How to Tank]

[azjazo]

You all have a point, but the thing is, even if theres a way, a difficult difficult and tedious way to be useful on PLD again, there is a very clear unbalance on effort/reward/usefullness compared to most other jobs at this stage.

That you can paint the monalisa on MS Paint with a mouse taking a lot of time and effort and talent, doesnt balace out that others have photoshop and a tablet. Sure, some people with paint and mouse will get better results than some with photoshop and tablet, but the dissadvantage and final work will show differences...

[Shakuzen]

T I outdamage most samurais and dragoons, hell even the poorly geared war.

o.o how can you possibly outdamage a dragoon? hitting for 600, jumping for 2k and WSing for 4k?

[Arcon]

o.o how can you possibly outdamage a dragoon? hitting for 600, jumping for 2k and WSing for 4k?

A very good empyrean PLD can't outdamage either of these jobs, even averagely geared, with the right Atmas. Maybe on par with an average SAM, if it's a great PLD, but that's about it. A decent SAM will beat it hands down.

I don't see the point in getting upset over the fact that PLD is a redundant job inside Abyssea, considering it's just one event that's about to be in the past. If this imbalance persists through the endgame content, then you should complain, but right now it's kinda pointless. As I was gonna say in another thread, but my session timed out and didn't wanna bother to rewrite it, PLD doesn't need to be fixed, the game needs to be fixed. Enmity issues with inherently higher damage numbers make it impossible for PLD to keep hate off any decent DD. I'm curious to see what SE does with the next update, if they make mobs that won't allow such high damage numbers, or go about some other way to adjust enmity generation, something definitely needs to be done.

[Caesaris]

I don't think new NM's are the key.

The game mechanics have to change. I don't care how used to things we all are, in order for PLD's to become great tanks again, the mechanics will have to change. Creating a new zone where the mobs are more friendly to PLD tanks is a pacifier for an even greater problem. The problem isn't the monsters, it's the PLD. Abyssea is a unique place, and nothing that we were used to doing outside of there is going to make sense. PLD's need better traits and abilities. We either need to DO more damage, or take less damage... period! Maybe if we had a trait that could grab hate like Provoke, without subbing WAR, then we could use other subs that could give us a greater Damage, or have better survivability. PLD/MNK maybe?

Remember our history people... creating new zones didn't make BST better in Sea! BST got better in SEA when the mechanics of the BST jug pet changed. Mechanics must change.

[vileragnorok]

ive done my fair share of complaining pld is far from usless in abbyi currently use pld daily in abby.i must say very productivlyproblem i see is empty vessles with a shield skill 220 lv 90 on the feild wondering why they suck.pld has always had to work hard to be a shining star on the battlefeild,with pld being my only lv 90 job for 2 years ive put alot of time and effort in aquiring the gear to be succesful,macros still need to be used for that extreme emnity boost to reach cap and stay there,plds need to prove themselves these days.there has been many times ive seen mnk,nin eva tanks fail and ive taken over for the win,you need to earn your place stop complaining, have you seen pld with emp shield its lol on the damage you take. the gear is there go get it,keep in mind old gear is still required as macro peices

[Darka]

here's another fun fact kids, Provoke is VE and the hate from it decays. Damage over time, DOT, dosen't. Especially if you're over there spamming vorpal blade for 200 and the mnk is getting 4k a ws.

I was agreeing till you touched on enmity mechanics. Any action generates both VE and CE, CE being retardedly easy to cap, and it doesn't decay unless you get hit.
VE decays a 60VE/second, Provoke generates both, and loses VE, damage generates both, and loses VE. The MNK keeps hate longer because he attacks faster.

Also, Guardian sucks. It doesn't reduce the natural decay of Enmity, it still decays at 60VE/second. What it does do is reduce enmity from damage taken during the Sentinel effect, which, is already extremely low because you're taking almost no damage already. Guardian merits are a joke.

Enmity decay is in effect always for VE, CE is only reduced via damage taken, and it's low.

Also, lol'd at out damaging DRGs, those be some god awful players if that's true. CDC is nice, but it doesn't fix PLD, it just moves them from doing no damage to some damage.

[Arcon]

I was agreeing till you touched on enmity mechanics. Any action generates both VE and CE, CE being retardedly easy to cap, and it doesn't decay unless you get hit.
VE decays a 60VE/second, Provoke generates both, and loses VE, damage generates both, and loses VE.

[.. ]

Enmity decay is in effect always for VE, CE is only reduced via damage taken, and it's low.

You're kinda right. While all actions produce at least 1 CE, very many actions actually produce just that, 1 CE, Provoke being one of them. Practically, it can be considered no CE. To cap CE on a Lv95 mob, you'd need to deal 8k damage. To cap VE, you'd need less than 2.7k. Now you could mention VE decay, which is practically moot, because you can do that much damage with one WS (even as PLD).

So while gaining CE is a lot harder than gaining VE, losing CE is very easy. While it isn't constant, like VE, taking 1k damage would lower your CE by 750, assuming Lv90 and 2400 HP, more outside of Abyssea. To lose that much VE, you'd have to wait over 12 seconds. Which, if you're still engaged to a mob, won't happen in the first place, because your attacks will keep VE higher than that regardless. It wouldn't be so easy to keep it capped outside of Abyssea, but it would take a lot longer there in the first place (over 20 seconds normally).

Either way, VE is a lot easier to cap and to maintain, despite its constant decay. As long as you deal more than 16 damage per second, your VE will be permanently capped. And I believe even a PLD, outside of Abyssea, can still pull that off.

[Darka]

What's your point? CE being DMG*1.25, never decaying outside of DMG taken, which for the vast majority of jobs is pretty low due to damage mitigation forms, like Utsusemi, Counterstance, MDT/PDT, whatever. Enmity loss from damage taken is pretty low in the grand scheme of things, and still fast to recover. So the CE loss of 750 is recovered from doing 600 damage, that's like 3-4 crit hits for most jobs, less for others.

You damage/second is off too, 60VE/second is in real time, players don't swing once per second, so it's going to be /focusing/ on the one hitting more often. Even if both are capped. Hence why the problem with PLD isn't capping enmity, it's that other jobs have such potent ways to mitigate damage that they just don't lose enmity.

[Arcon]

What's your point?

Just saying that VE is easier to cap and maintain.

CE being DMG*1.25, never decaying outside of DMG taken, which for the vast majority of jobs is pretty low due to damage mitigation forms, like Utsusemi, Counterstance, MDT/PDT, whatever. Enmity loss from damage taken is pretty low in the grand scheme of things, and still fast to recover. So the CE loss of 750 is recovered from doing 600 damage, that's like 3-4 crit hits for most jobs, less for others.

You damage/second is off too, 60VE/second is in real time, players don't swing once per second, so it's going to be /focusing/ on the one hitting more often. Even if both are capped. Hence why the problem with PLD isn't capping enmity, it's that other jobs have such potent ways to mitigate damage that they just don't lose enmity.

That's debateable, I don't see enmity as paladin's problem at all. Anyone, even mages, can cap and maintain both forms of enmity if they try, PLD is no exception. But why argue that not losing CE is what makes other jobs keep enmity better, when you said that losing enmity is easily restored with a few hits?

All I'm saying is, losing CE is what makes the mob run away, because it takes a few hits to recover. Losing VE is almost instantly recovered. Often not even a second passes, even if you have a higher than 1s delay. And some jobs are capable hitting faster too (most actually).

[Darka]

I didn't say capping or maintaining capped enmity is PLDs problem at all(though there's a lot of room for debate after factoring uncapped attack/dDEX etc into the equation). The problem with PLD is that due to other jobs capping hate, and mitigating DMG as well as or better than PLD is the problem . It means they can tank, hold hate, take low DMG, and output more DMG.
Basically what Cream Soda said first page, if other jobs can mitigate DMG as well as PLD, whilst outputting more DMG than a PLD, why use one?

Anyway I'm not getting into a debate about why to/not use PLD, I'd love PLD to return myself, I was responding to OP who said VE doesn't deteriorate from Provoke which is incorrect. That and Guardian is awful.