Enough... If you're a paladin then show it. [How to Tank]

[Arcon]

Anyway I'm not getting into a debate about why to/not use PLD, I'd love PLD to return myself, I was responding to OP who said VE doesn't deteriorate from Provoke which is incorrect. That and Guardian is awful.

Couldn't agree more.

[Mordanthos]

When shadows absorb dmg, you lose enmity just as if you took dmg. Been proven on the All about enmity thread on some test site. Counter and retaliate dont cause enmity either. So shadows and counters dont help enmity. Shadows actually hurt enmity, where as 0 dmg causes no enmity loss what so ever. And a proper pld is going to be taking 0 dmg 8/10 hits at least at a minimum. IDK wtf you guys have been seeing from paladins, but when i tank i take 0-60 dmg tops from just about anything, and to sit here and say that 450 defense has no difference between 45 defense from counterstance is just the most retarded thing ive heard. Besides, if a paladin has 450 defense, they should delete there character, my defense is 850, and 909 with taco, let me see your faggot mnk take less dmg than my paladin anywhere.. The Tier 4 VNM outside abyssea hits me for 20, i mean come on, let me see your *** mnk survive that T4 VNM for more than 15 seconds. And I shouldn't even be that generous.

[Zagen]

When shadows absorb dmg, you lose enmity just as if you took dmg. Been proven on the All about enmity thread on some test site. Counter and retaliate dont cause enmity either. So shadows and counters dont help enmity. Shadows actually hurt enmity, where as 0 dmg causes no enmity loss what so ever. And a proper pld is going to be taking 0 dmg 8/10 hits at least at a minimum. IDK wtf you guys have been seeing from paladins, but when i tank i take 0-60 dmg tops from just about anything, and to sit here and say that 450 defense has no difference between 45 defense from counterstance is just the most retarded thing ive heard. Besides, if a paladin has 450 defense, they should delete there character, my defense is 850, and 909 with taco, let me see your *** mnk take less dmg than my paladin anywhere.. The Tier 4 VNM outside abyssea hits me for 20, i mean come on, let me see your *** mnk survive that T4 VNM for more than 15 seconds. And i shouldnt even be that generous.

Shadows cost a straight 80CE loss which is nothing like taking damage... At 1300 HP (nice average accounting for all races) that's the same as 57 damage. This is why PLD/NIN is so popular and has been for a long time. I would love to see proof of the contrary, so a link to that "All about enmity thread" would be great.

Also while a counter generates 0 hate, it also loses 0 hate and does more damage to the monster.

I feel the biggest problem with PLD is a lack of understanding how hate works...

I would love to see proof of you taking 0 dmg outside of Sentinel being fresh on anything above Even Match. A parse would be awesome, or even a picture of your chat log showing you taking 0 damage without Sentinel up. Maybe you have Ochain/Aegis but lets be realisitic a PLD shouldn't NEED those to be a "proper" PLD.

Also you should really run tests on how much damage you take with that "weak 450 def" against any NM in Abyssea and then test again with your 850~909 def you'd be sad when you realize that 400+ def doesn't do a whole lot. After all if def was really all that BLU would take the least amount of damage regardless of sub. Then when you realize that MNK with 100 def (if that) with Counterstance up is not only taking around the same amount of damage (usually less since a counter = 0 damage taken) as you but is also dealing more damage from the increased counter rate you'll realize why PLD tank sucks on easy mobs. For other DD jobs being better than PLD on easy to tank mobs look at the damage dealt difference, a WAR/SAM won't take less damage per hit than a PLD but they will kill the monster a hell of a lot faster which means less damage taken over the fight and a decent WHM will be able to keep either one alive which is why WAR/SAM would be a "better" tank, not only will they keep hate and stay alive but they'll kill stuff faster.

PLD sucks on easy to tank monsters, get monsters that aren't gimped by super buffs (hi atma/cruor) are higher level (hi Voidwatch, for now at least) and you have an area where PLD will excel in, other than that face it while PLD is a functional tank on weak monsters it isn't optimal.

[Cursed]

Shadows cost a straight 80CE loss which is nothing like taking damage... At 1300 HP (nice average accounting for all races) that's the same as 57 damage. This is why PLD/NIN is so popular and has been for a long time. I would love to see proof of the contrary, so a link to that "All about enmity thread" would be great.

Also while a counter generates 0 hate, it also loses 0 hate and does more damage to the monster.

I feel the biggest problem with PLD is a lack of understanding how hate works...

I would love to see proof of you taking 0 dmg outside of Sentinel being fresh on anything above Even Match. A parse would be awesome, or even a picture of your chat log showing you taking 0 damage without Sentinel up. Maybe you have Ochain/Aegis but lets be realisitic a PLD shouldn't NEED those to be a "proper" PLD.

Also you should really run tests on how much damage you take with that "weak 450 def" against any NM in Abyssea and then test again with your 850~909 def you'd be sad when you realize that 400+ def doesn't do a whole lot. After all if def was really all that BLU would take the least amount of damage regardless of sub. Then when you realize that MNK with 100 def (if that) with Counterstance up is not only taking around the same amount of damage (usually less since a counter = 0 damage taken) as you but is also dealing more damage from the increased counter rate you'll realize why PLD tank sucks on easy mobs. For other DD jobs being better than PLD on easy to tank mobs look at the damage dealt difference, a WAR/SAM won't take less damage per hit than a PLD but they will kill the monster a hell of a lot faster which means less damage taken over the fight and a decent WHM will be able to keep either one alive which is why WAR/SAM would be a "better" tank, not only will they keep hate and stay alive but they'll kill stuff faster.

PLD sucks on easy to tank monsters, get monsters that aren't gimped by super buffs (hi atma/cruor) are higher level (hi Voidwatch, for now at least) and you have an area where PLD will excel in, other than that face it while PLD is a functional tank on weak monsters it isn't optimal.

sums it up pretty much. I am both a vere mnk and an aegis/ochain pld. Inside Abyssea, MNK is just leagues beyond anything else. PLD is leagues behind.

Outside Abyssea, its nice to solo old content on PLD and be there for when shit hits the fan. But that's about it.\

[Lordscyon]

1) Paladin should just get provoke job ability it be nice too not sub war! for provoke.


2) Tarutaru Paladin are the best tanks in the game!

[Unleashhell]

Why is everyone so obsessed with Provoke......

[Greatguardian]

A good 80% of the FFXI population has never played their jobs outside of an EXP or EXP-like scenario. That's the sort of perspective a lot of people work with. As far as Exp goes, many people are used to Pld/War pre-70. I would like to think that they just plain do not know better.

However, with that said, there is absolutely no longer any excuse after reading these forums. Do I need to just make a thread with "Provoke Sucks" in the title so people bother to read it? Jalepeno Franks on a Pogo Stick, the lack of reading grates on you after a while.

[cidbahamut]

Do I need to just make a thread with "Provoke Sucks" in the title so people bother to read it?

Yes.

tenletters

[Caesaris]

ive done my fair share of complaining pld is far from usless in abbyi currently use pld daily in abby.i must say very productivlyproblem i see is empty vessles with a shield skill 220 lv 90 on the feild wondering why they suck.pld has always had to work hard to be a shining star on the battlefeild,with pld being my only lv 90 job for 2 years ive put alot of time and effort in aquiring the gear to be succesful,macros still need to be used for that extreme emnity boost to reach cap and stay there,plds need to prove themselves these days.there has been many times ive seen mnk,nin eva tanks fail and ive taken over for the win,you need to earn your place stop complaining, have you seen pld with emp shield its lol on the damage you take. the gear is there go get it,keep in mind old gear is still required as macro peices

By this thinking, a PLD needs Empyrean or Relic weapons/armor to be useful. I think this hurts the level of skill that many PLD's have built with 'budget' equipment sets. I have 2 Empyrean +1's for my PLD (body and legs), and I do ok tanking. The reason why MNK tanks are more popular than we are isn't because a MNK tanks better than we do... It's because of the hate a MNK is able to keep while a BLM is nuking and a DRG or SAM are doing massive amounts of damage.

No other job needs those rare and EXTREMELY hard to obtain gear/weapons to properly do their job. If you want to go above and beyond what the normal job player does, then yes, you need that high end stuff. All MNK's needed to be good tanks was their natural evasion, damage output, and job abilities. A PLD should be able to do the its job with what we naturally have.

Our evasion skills are a joke, meaning we need more attention during a fight (MNK's, outside of rolls and songs, just need haste and Cure). The damage we do is a joke (I think only dedicated mages have weaker attacks than we do)

[Bumbeen]

Do I need to just make a thread with "Provoke Sucks" in the title so people bother to read it?

Please do kind sir.