March update and enmity

[Alhanelem]

You seem to prefer the wow/FF 14 approach. I prefer the system on this game where hate is less predictable and damage dealers have to be on their guard and respect what they are attacking because it might turn around and attack them back.

Unpredictably dying isn't much fun. Everything should always go smoothly if everyone in the party is skilled, knows what they're doing, and knows how a given encounter works. You might like dying to RNG(randomness, not Ranger), but most people don't. In FFXIV, if I die I know it's because I screwed up, in most cases. You're only punished for making mistakes, not for doing your job to the best of your ability.

But totally outside of this, where I won't agree to disagree because it's a bad system, the current system is itself broken because it doesn't work correctly due to not being adjusted for increasing power elvels of all jobs as we went up to 99 and ilvl territory. We are still working with a system based around being level 75 that has not been updated in any way since. At 75, you only pulled hate if the tank was performing badly or you landed an unusually powerful attack. Now, anyone can pull hate with anything - Cures, buffs, damage, whatever you can think of - because anyone can hit the hate cap WITHOUT EVEN TRYING. Tell me with a straight face that isn't broken. You don't even have to pull off a big skillchain or do something really threatening. You will pull hate just from performing your job at an ordinary level doing nothing remarkable.

I love XI, still do, but this has been one of the most broken aspects of the game for years. You don't even know who to blame when you die half the time because even the most skilled player tanking can't keep the mob off you. If the mob spins like a top no matter what people do, it's just a big game of russian roulette. Why even have a tank if they can't tank?

[Selindrile]

Why even have a tank if they can't tank?

Because they can if the only DDs you use are careful rangers, sheesh!

In all seriousness though, the enmity system is more than a little out of date, multiply the current cap by say, 5000, make provoke grant you either it's current amount of enmity if you are on the top of the enmity list, or that, plus the the difference in enmity between you and the next highest member on the hate list.

Yes, that would make tanking "easier" (and not the impossibility it is now, outside of rangers) but it's still very possible to out aggro your tank very quickly even with that system, the buff to provoke would be there primarily so that if you ever had a tank die, or another had to take over, or recover after death, it wouldn't be impossible for them to do so. (with such a high enmity cap)

[Ulth]

Because they can if the only DDs you use are careful rangers, sheesh!

In all seriousness though, the enmity system is more than a little out of date, multiply the current cap by say, 5000, make provoke grant you either it's current amount of enmity if you are on the top of the enmity list, or that, plus the the difference in enmity between you and the next highest member on the hate list.

Yes, that would make tanking "easier" (and not the impossibility it is now, outside of rangers) but it's still very possible to out aggro your tank very quickly even with that system, the buff to provoke would be there primarily so that if you ever had a tank die, or another had to take over, or recover after death, it wouldn't be impossible for them to do so. (with such a high enmity cap)

Indeed doing risky things can back fire fast. I remember the first time I did AA Hume. I saw him pop mighty strikes in the first 10 seconds of the fight and thought to myself that would be fun to larceny. AA Hume was not amused, and I got a 5 minute time out.

[Dale]

There has been much testing on enmity since..... forever. I'll take the results of the tests over random guy A who plays PLD and thinks PLD shouldn't tank and that his fun and interacting gameplay is revolved around DDs tanking.

This is why I'm always hesitant to get involved in this enmity debate. It always devolves into comments like this.

I never said DD's should tank. I do however like it that they pull threat when they do a lot of damage - and I would like to keep it that way. I never said Paladins shouldn't tank. But I don't want them to always have the threat while everyone else just mindlessly spams their most damaging rotations. I had enough of that gameplay on WoW.

So I like the way the enmity system on this game works. I understand that you don't. We just disagree.

[Dale]

Unpredictably dying isn't much fun. Everything should always go smoothly if everyone in the party is skilled, knows what they're doing, and knows how a given encounter works. You might like dying to RNG(randomness, not Ranger), but most people don't. In FFXIV, if I die I know it's because I screwed up, in most cases. You're only punished for making mistakes, not for doing your job to the best of your ability.

But totally outside of this, where I won't agree to disagree because it's a bad system, the current system is itself broken because it doesn't work correctly due to not being adjusted for increasing power elvels of all jobs as we went up to 99 and ilvl territory. We are still working with a system based around being level 75 that has not been updated in any way since. At 75, you only pulled hate if the tank was performing badly or you landed an unusually powerful attack. Now, anyone can pull hate with anything - Cures, buffs, damage, whatever you can think of - because anyone can hit the hate cap WITHOUT EVEN TRYING. Tell me with a straight face that isn't broken. You don't even have to pull off a big skillchain or do something really threatening. You will pull hate just from performing your job at an ordinary level doing nothing remarkable.

I love XI, still do, but this has been one of the most broken aspects of the game for years. You don't even know who to blame when you die half the time because even the most skilled player tanking can't keep the mob off you. If the mob spins like a top no matter what people do, it's just a big game of russian roulette. Why even have a tank if they can't tank?

Tanks can tank. They just can't tank if they are wearing full mitigation gear with a gimped offense while all the other melee in the group are decked out in their most powerful DD gear. That's the problem. It creates a party imbalance that prevents the tank from being able to require threat.

Enmity caps aren't the problem and raising them wouldn't stop what you are referring to from happening. It might just a little longer for it to happen is all.

[PlumbGame]

Not repeating myself again. There is just so many times you can repeat yourself to a wall before you realize that the wall can't hear you and won't change.

[bazookatooth]

Tanks can tank. They just can't tank if they are wearing full mitigation gear with a gimped offense while all the other melee in the group are decked out in their most powerful DD gear. That's the problem. It creates a party imbalance that prevents the tank from being able to require threat.

Enmity caps aren't the problem and raising them wouldn't stop what you are referring to from happening. It might just a little longer for it to happen is all.

Paladins also can't tank if they take off full mitigation gear and gimp their defense. They just can't tank. The only way they can tank is if other people don't do much damage. Which means that a paladin doing their job requires a concerted effort by all other front line jobs to not do their job.

You don't get to call your self a good tank if your best skill is convincing people not to do damage. The game needs higher emnity caps and better emnity mitigation abilities. Doing nothing is not hate control. It's doing nothing.

There are ways for tanks to gain hate without taking crazy damage and there are ways for DDS to deal max damage without surpassing the tank's emnity. They just don't exist in FFXI.


The best method would be to give DDs methods of shedding emnity without gimping their damage output. That way instead of doing nothing in order to keep hate on the tank, they would do.... something to keep hate on the tank.

[Ulth]

The game needs higher emnity caps and better emnity mitigation abilities.

I don't think the cap should be increased. I think the formula for enmity generated by damage needs to be adjusted for higher level combat. The values for stored values can only go so high, and I think the devs said something about it only being able to store numbers 4 times what it is now.

[Dale]

Paladins also can't tank if they take off full mitigation gear and gimp their defense. They just can't tank. The only way they can tank is if other people don't do much damage. Which means that a paladin doing their job requires a concerted effort by all other front line jobs to not do their job.

You don't get to call your self a good tank if your best skill is convincing people not to do damage. The game needs higher emnity caps and better emnity mitigation abilities. Doing nothing is not hate control. It's doing nothing.

There are ways for tanks to gain hate without taking crazy damage and there are ways for DDS to deal max damage without surpassing the tank's emnity. They just don't exist in FFXI.


The best method would be to give DDs methods of shedding emnity without gimping their damage output. That way instead of doing nothing in order to keep hate on the tank, they would do.... something to keep hate on the tank.

I agree with you there are many fights that require full mitigation gear to tank. I've already said that if you browse up and read my posts. Not all of them. But there are many out there that do: and these are the fights that the Paladin is going to have difficulty tanking. Especially if the other members in the group do not follow suit and wear mitigation gear themselves. I've said this dozens of times. And that is the real problem here.

I've never advocated for anyone to do nothing or for tanks to try and convince people not to do damage. The only suggestion I have put out there is for other front line DD jobs to wear mitigation gear as well as the tank on difficult fights (and I mean during the whole fight, not just when the monster is looking at them). That would help alleviate the enmity problems. But of course they will never do that: because too many people out there see it as their sole responsibility to do MAXIMUM DAMAGE. Who cares if it gets them killed or makes it super difficult on the tank - because if it does it's the game's fault, the tank's fault.... or the enmity system is just broken.

I disagree with you on the best method to fix this issue. Raising enmity caps would not fix anything. Allowing front line DDs to easily shed enmity while doing max damage would make combat too static. However: if they were to buff defense and make that the new mitigation that is one way this problem could be fixed. Because in truth: all front line jobs benefit from a healthy amount of mitigation on this game to help them survive difficult fights. Not just the tank.

But that's not the way most people will play it. Players are just too stuck in their ways from playing other games and believe only the tank needs to worry about defense and everyone else should just be able to go crazy without any regard for their own safety. So as I say: they should just ditch the whole mitigation gear concept because all it does is make a bad situation even worse and further disadvantages the designated tank.

[Dale]

I don't think the cap should be increased. I think the formula for enmity generated by damage needs to be adjusted for higher level combat. The values for stored values can only go so high, and I think the devs said something about it only being able to store numbers 4 times what it is now.

This isn't a bad idea. Lowering the amount of enmity generated by damage on higher level fights would help with this problem. But it's not a consistent solution and would prefer a fix that didn't have to be singularly applied.