March update and enmity

[Dale]

One player can maintain hate at all times. They use it for the more difficult boss fights. It's the pld rng strategy. I feel it has a negative effect on gameplay. All of delve is extremely gimmicky.

Through the use of a strategy they can. That was my point. So I think you misunderstood my post.

If all a tank had to do was walk into a fight and spam flash/provoke/cure and never lose hate it would prevent the group from having to implement any kind of strategy to control hate. This is the way it is on other games. I prefer the way it is on this game - where hate is an actual factor that must be considered and strategized around.

[Dale]

The problem with enmity is this:

High damage should be punished with a lot of hate because if DDs can deal high damage without threat of being hit, DDs can be as liberal as they want. If DD actions produce very little hate, then all a PLD or tank has to do is use a few JA/Spells and they lock hate on them for most of the fight, whilst DDs have nothing to fear except AoEs. This is how many MMO actually work and it's actually a poor system. Damage dealing should be risky, higher damage=higher risk of pulling hate. Pull hate too often or for two long and risk getting killed. On the other hand, enmity from damage dealing, while actually 50% of what it used to be 3 years ago(they nerfed it), the damage scaling has increased tremendously in the last 3 years due to 26% haste gear being plentiful and the linear exponential growth of ilvl stats/base DMG.

Where do you draw the line of balance between making high damage punishable and risky, but also foster strategy and tactics so the tank has the resources to get and maintain hate. If they let tanks surpass the hate cap, then DDs will never be able to pull hate as long as the tanks stay at least 1enmity above the cap. That would be a broken system because once a PLD is beyond the cap, DDs could zerg as they please without fear of stealing hate, mages can drop high enmity nukes or spam cures with reckless abandon. SE would counter this probably with frequent hate-reset TP moves or instant-death attacks.


One way to fix this is to vastly increase mob's single target attacks but buff the DEF/ATT formula such that PLDs take reduced damage versus these huge attacks, but a WAR or DRK get rocked for huge damage if they pull hate. It would usher in careful DDing, bringing THFs, subbing /NIN, and even evasion tanking because perhaps even with an Ochain PLD, perhaps the mob hits too hard that you'd need an Evasion tank, with Utsusemi, Blind and Accuracy Down attacks.

I like your idea to buff the DEF formula and give Paladins a trait to take less damage from huge attacks. Because as things are now: stacking -mdt/-pdt/-damage is really the only significant way to defend yourself against a lot of the damage on this game through gear.

I would prefer that wearing heavy armor with high defenses would accomplish the same effect. This would also keep the parties more balanced and aid with the enmity issues as there would no longer be a need for the designated tank in the group to gimp themselves offensively with loads of mitigation gear.

[Ulth]

Thfs don't use evasion anymore. Unless the mob is so weak everything it does tickles, there isn't enough evasion gear in the game to make it viable just like with capping defense. Even then just too many moves are unavoidable. I have a pdt set and an mdt set. It's what I use to tank in skirmish, delve, and incursion.

The enmity problem is a lot worst than just having DDs back off now and then so they don't get hate. Sure they are doing way more damage than before ilvl, but the high damage has to be done because the mobs have higher hp, and people would time out otherwise. The problem is enmity hasn't scaled right with ilvl. Lots of things haven't scaled right with ilvl. I would say no amount of strategy can fix that, but rngs can fight without generating any enmity, so there is at least one. It's not insane to expect some adjustment to how enmity works when it's not working right.

[Dale]

Thfs don't use evasion anymore. Unless the mob is so weak everything it does tickles, there isn't enough evasion gear in the game to make it viable just like with capping defense. Even then just too many moves are unavoidable. I have a pdt set and an mdt set. It's what I use to tank in skirmish, delve, and incursion.

The enmity problem is a lot worst than just having DDs back off now and then so they don't get hate. Sure they are doing way more damage than before ilvl, but the high damage has to be done because the mobs have higher hp, and people would time out otherwise. The problem is enmity hasn't scaled right with ilvl. Lots of things haven't scaled right with ilvl. I would say no amount of strategy can fix that, but rngs can fight without generating any enmity, so there is at least one. It's not insane to expect some adjustment to how enmity works when it's not working right.

I'm no expert on thieves: but I've seen them last out against some extremely hard hitting monsters using shadows and what I assumed to be their high evasion. Now I'll admit the thief was one-shotted once he got hit - so mitigation is still probably wise to have. But clearly something they have is capable of providing a good alternative. Because I saw one the other day going toe to toe with a notorious monster that was nailing me for 600+ damage with its regular hits in full -pdt gear.

But anyway: this is neither here nor there. If you say evade is no longer good I have no appetite to argue with you about. You actually play a thief so are in a better position to say.

Back on point: what you see as a problem with the enmity system I see more as a problem with party balance. I believe the system itself works well. The problem occurs on higher level fights when the designated tank is compelled to wear mitigation gear to survive and other players do not - giving them a distinct advantage in terms of offense that the provided hate tools can't overcome.

Nothing you have suggested has been insane. I just think you are aiming your criticisms in the wrong area is all. Because it's not the system itself that is flawed as I see it. It's the imbalances brought about due to tanking gear vs damaging gear. And this issue has been present on this game for many years now - long before the ilvl was scaled.

[PlumbGame]

It is the system that is flawed. The issue has not been present for years, in the 75 days on MOST content, a tank with TAs for example would never lose threat. Sure, it happened, but not like it does today. It was much more enjoyable for both side, and is not a tanking gear vs damaging gear problem. I assume you keep missing the issue presented in this thread of capped threat?

[Ulth]

I'm no expert on thieves: but I've seen them last out against some extremely hard hitting monsters using shadows and what I assumed to be their high evasion. Now I'll admit the thief was one-shotted once he got hit - so mitigation is still probably wise to have. But clearly something they have is capable of providing a good alternative. Because I saw one the other day going toe to toe with a notorious monster that was nailing me for 600+ damage with its regular hits in full -pdt gear.

But anyway: this is neither here nor there. If you say evade is no longer good I have no appetite to argue with you about. You actually play a thief so are in a better position to say.

Back on point: what you see as a problem with the enmity system I see more as a problem with party balance. I believe the system itself works well. The problem occurs on higher level fights when the designated tank is compelled to wear mitigation gear to survive and other players do not - giving them a distinct advantage in terms of offense that the provided hate tools can't overcome.

Nothing you have suggested has been insane. I just think you are aiming your criticisms in the wrong area is all. Because it's not the system itself that is flawed as I see it. It's the imbalances brought about due to tanking gear vs damaging gear. And this issue has been present on this game for many years now - long before the ilvl was scaled.

Yorium armor from Alluvion skrimish Yorcia. With it war, drk, and pld can all have a tp set with plenty of offense and damage mitigation. Weapon skill sets would be better made from acro though, unless the weaponskill in question is highly vit based.

Hate still builds too fast, and very few jobs have abilities that can deal with it. Thf is supposed to be able to control hate, but those abilities fall flat. TA only helps the tank cap hate faster, where as the hate stealing moves are only good for really bad times when the choices are the whm dying or the thf taking their place. Normally the latter only happens when dealing with hate reset moves that target the DDs.

[Alhanelem]

Through the use of a strategy they can. That was my point. So I think you misunderstood my post.

If all a tank had to do was walk into a fight and spam flash/provoke/cure and never lose hate it would prevent the group from having to implement any kind of strategy to control hate. This is the way it is on other games. I prefer the way it is on this game - where hate is an actual factor that must be considered and strategized around.

Actually this isn't the way it is in most other games. Usually as long as the tank is playing his job properly, other jobs won't pull hate against him. The other party members dont need a "strategy" to avoid overtaking the tank in hate, and any blame for loss of hate control falls squarely on the tank. DPS roles shouldn't have to restrain their DPS except as part of a monster's ability or mechanic that requires them to.

[Dale]

It is the system that is flawed. The issue has not been present for years, in the 75 days on MOST content, a tank with TAs for example would never lose threat. Sure, it happened, but not like it does today. It was much more enjoyable for both side, and is not a tanking gear vs damaging gear problem. I assume you keep missing the issue presented in this thread of capped threat?

This issue has been present for years though. I've read these same exact criticisms about the enmity system for as long as I can remember.

The likely reason it seems more prevalent now is because powerful gear just got released. As a result: damage dealers are doing more damage than ever: thus widening the offense gap between players wearing damage gear vs players wearing mitigation gear.

I understand that you think that the issue is capped threat. But I really don't think raising that would fix the problem you are describing.

The enmity system itself works well: and you can demonstrate that yourself by slapping your paladin into a competitive damage dealing set. Damage dealers won't end up tanking with auto attacks then - and combat will function more appropriately.

[Dale]

Yorium armor from Alluvion skrimish Yorcia. With it war, drk, and pld can all have a tp set with plenty of offense and damage mitigation. Weapon skill sets would be better made from acro though, unless the weaponskill in question is highly vit based.

Hate still builds too fast, and very few jobs have abilities that can deal with it. Thf is supposed to be able to control hate, but those abilities fall flat. TA only helps the tank cap hate faster, where as the hate stealing moves are only good for really bad times when the choices are the whm dying or the thf taking their place. Normally the latter only happens when dealing with hate reset moves that target the DDs.

Yorium gauntlets have -2% PDT on them. That is the only piece that has any innate mitigation on them - and it's physical not overall damage. So to describe the Yorium set has having plenty of damage mitigation is inaccurate in my opinion.

The most -damage I have seen through duskslit augments is -3%. These stones are expensive and not easy to farm. Even if a Paladin has already managed to get ahold of enough of these stones to fully augment the entire Yorium set with mitigation it would still only offer -15% damage taken, -17% if it's physical . That's not very good and you will likely die as a tank if that's all you have when fighting higher level notorious monsters. Not to mention this would also require the tank to give up the nice stat boosts (STR + DEX) that is possible on the armor.

Hate may or may not build too fast. But what I am trying to describe to you is that wouldn't be a real problem nor would the enmity caps if the offensive gap between the designated tank (the player wearing mitigation gear) and the players wearing damaging gear wasn't so great. That's what causes enmity to get out of control and renders the tank's hate tools (flash/provoke etc.) ineffective.

[Dale]

Actually this isn't the way it is in most other games. Usually as long as the tank is playing his job properly, other jobs won't pull hate against him. The other party members dont need a "strategy" to avoid overtaking the tank in hate, and any blame for loss of hate control falls squarely on the tank. DPS roles shouldn't have to restrain their DPS except as part of a monster's ability or mechanic that requires them to.

I think you misunderstood my post.

That is what I was saying: that on most other games the tank simply spams some optimized rotation and keeps hate through-out the fight. It's rare for another party member to actually get hit - and when they do it's thought to be the tank's fault and not part of the expected gameplay.

Where we fundamentally disagree is you like this approach and I don't. I find this kind of combat shallow and prefer it when there are enmity caps or a similar mechanic in place that causes the enemies to mix it up between party members. It improves the gameplay and makes combat more interesting.

In other words: I like that the boss will turn and attack the player who just busted off a huge skill chain.