Rune Fencer & Ninja ~ Small Idea to Make it a Real Tank

[Rwolf]

They could do either, I was just thinking of it from a standpoint of what's the easiest thing to do which is add it to something existing. Foil could be extended but it makes more sense for Reprisal to work on blocking than for Foil suddenly to. Going on what the abilities do versus their actual names.

[dasva]

You're right I think they were doing gauge for other things been a long time since I read alla.... here ya go

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...6&h=50&p=6#280

[Martel]

Hmm, Well I see dasva managed to find some decent testing before I posted. Well, that renders my post more or less irrelevant, but I guess I'll post it anyway.

Oh, and someone go nuke that derpy charm wiki page and link that testing to your edit.
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I wouldn't blame anyone for questioning the current community knowledge base, this is part of how we correct old errors and learn new things, however...

Anecdotal evidence >>> No evidence. You're basing your stance off a single relatively recent wiki edit by some unknown wiki'er. No source. no citations. no testimonials. no nothing.

Now, do I have some indepth charm element testing handy? Nope. I suspect with enough digging into some really old BST posts, we might find some. But why would anyone? It's been known and accepted in general by the gaming community for years.

As the one proposing that the current accepted element for charm is in error, the burden of proof is on you. So if you want any of the rest of us to change our potentially erroneous ways then get out there and create that test data you want.

[Alhanelem]

This whole argument is silly. Ulth is jsut casting doubt for the sake of casting doubt. While even I demand evidence to support conclusions, charm isn't a new thing in this game, people have had plenty of time to observe how it works. It's not like there isn't any in game material including dialogue, various equipment, ability icon colors that supports what's being said in here, along with a plethora of available targets and methods to determine what influences charm success rate.

Kind of hilarious how a thread about making tank jobs tank better turned into a debate on whether or not charm is light based.

As far as links between elements and core attributes, PUP, WHM RDM and GEO make (Most of) these associations explicitly clear:

Fire maneuver increases the automaton's STR; Boost/Gain-STR and geo/indi-STR are fire element
Wind increases AGI; Boost/gain AGI and geo/indi AGI are wind element
Thunder " DEX; " " DEX are Thunder element
Water " MND; " " MND are Water element
Ice " INT; " " MND are Ice element
Earth " VIT; " " VIT are Earth element
Light maneuver increases CHR, HP with appropriate attachment; " " CHR are Light element
(Here is where it's slightly cloudier)
Dark maneuver increases MP with appropriate attachment. MP is the only core stat the dark element is ever really associated with, with dark element equipment typically having MP where light element equipment typically has HP on it (but both HP and MP recovery can be either dark or light depending on the school of magic the spell comes from)

[Martel]

Yeeaah. I think that was kinda my fault. But well, the op wasn't really that interesting, and when I see misinformation I try to correct it.

[Alhanelem]

Thank you for trivializing my concern that the player base might be wrong about something

I"m concerned that you're concerned about the possibility of the playerbase being wrong about something so trivial.

Of course, the playerbase, or at least that which the respondents on this forum represent, are not wrong here, for sure at least regarding BST charm. If you're so concerned about it, why not do some scientific testing of your own, since you're accusing everyone of confirmation bias and eyeballing while offering no real proof of your own that your position is correct? Of course, in the same post you said you weren't willing to put forth the effort- which basically concludes this discussion since you're unable to effectively make your case.

(Note that much of what was discussed was actually about beastmaster charm- and based on the comments above, i'm probably most inclined to believe that it depends entirely on the mob and in at least some cases, probably explicit "resist charm' or "resist all status ailments" are the only things that will help).

@ above poster, if you want a mob that spams charm which you can easily resist, the silver sea remnants I salvage boss does a single target charm ability that it spams until it hits at least one person with it- it fails a lot just by having high magic evasion.

[Martel]

@ above poster, if you want a mob that spams charm which you can easily resist, the silver sea remnants I salvage boss does a single target charm ability that it spams until it hits at least one person with it- it fails a lot just by having high magic evasion.

I'm aware of the mob and it's tendencies. But I wasn't going to waste a salvage run on it. And since dasva already posted a link to good testing indicating that charm is light based, I don't see any reason to mess with it anymore. I was just putting it out there that I did try to gather some data. If ineffectively.

[Alhanelem]

I'm aware of the mob and it's tendencies. But I wasn't going to waste a salvage run on it. And since dasva already posted a link to good testing indicating that charm is light based, I don't see any reason to mess with it anymore. I was just putting it out there that I did try to gather some data. If ineffectively.

Eh, its not that bad, for salvage 1, its one of the best alex droppers. If you're lucky enough to get the bag from the boss, its up there with the other good runs. But you have a fair point.

[Ulth]

I"m concerned that you're concerned about the possibility of the playerbase being wrong about something so trivial.

Of course, the playerbase, or at least that which the respondents on this forum represent, are not wrong here, for sure at least regarding BST charm. If you're so concerned about it, why not do some scientific testing of your own, since you're accusing everyone of confirmation bias and eyeballing while offering no real proof of your own that your position is correct? Of course, in the same post you said you weren't willing to put forth the effort- which basically concludes this discussion since you're unable to effectively make your case.

(Note that much of what was discussed was actually about beastmaster charm- and based on the comments above, i'm probably most inclined to believe that it depends entirely on the mob and in at least some cases, probably explicit "resist charm' or "resist all status ailments" are the only things that will help).

@ above poster, if you want a mob that spams charm which you can easily resist, the silver sea remnants I salvage boss does a single target charm ability that it spams until it hits at least one person with it- it fails a lot just by having high magic evasion.

What this originally was about was which rune Rune Fencers should use in order to resist charm. You are the one who brought up beast master.

Also, charm is indeed light based, the player charm is determined by charisma which is the stat associated with the light element.

I don't actually care if a level 75 bst should use light staff or not. I don't play bst, and don't plan to in the future. Even if I did from what I gather charm is obsolete and replaced with jug pets. The people conducting the light staff test in the link even joked about how charm testing only took place long after it was useful.

What does matter is that there are mobs in current content that use charm. It would be nice to know what runes to use to not get hit by charm.