Rune Fencer & Ninja ~ Small Idea to Make it a Real Tank

[Martel]

Hmm, Well I see dasva managed to find some decent testing before I posted. Well, that renders my post more or less irrelevant, but I guess I'll post it anyway.

Oh, and someone go nuke that derpy charm wiki page and link that testing to your edit.
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I wouldn't blame anyone for questioning the current community knowledge base, this is part of how we correct old errors and learn new things, however...

Anecdotal evidence >>> No evidence. You're basing your stance off a single relatively recent wiki edit by some unknown wiki'er. No source. no citations. no testimonials. no nothing.

Now, do I have some indepth charm element testing handy? Nope. I suspect with enough digging into some really old BST posts, we might find some. But why would anyone? It's been known and accepted in general by the gaming community for years.

As the one proposing that the current accepted element for charm is in error, the burden of proof is on you. So if you want any of the rest of us to change our potentially erroneous ways then get out there and create that test data you want.

[Alhanelem]

This whole argument is silly. Ulth is jsut casting doubt for the sake of casting doubt. While even I demand evidence to support conclusions, charm isn't a new thing in this game, people have had plenty of time to observe how it works. It's not like there isn't any in game material including dialogue, various equipment, ability icon colors that supports what's being said in here, along with a plethora of available targets and methods to determine what influences charm success rate.

Kind of hilarious how a thread about making tank jobs tank better turned into a debate on whether or not charm is light based.

As far as links between elements and core attributes, PUP, WHM RDM and GEO make (Most of) these associations explicitly clear:

Fire maneuver increases the automaton's STR; Boost/Gain-STR and geo/indi-STR are fire element
Wind increases AGI; Boost/gain AGI and geo/indi AGI are wind element
Thunder " DEX; " " DEX are Thunder element
Water " MND; " " MND are Water element
Ice " INT; " " MND are Ice element
Earth " VIT; " " VIT are Earth element
Light maneuver increases CHR, HP with appropriate attachment; " " CHR are Light element
(Here is where it's slightly cloudier)
Dark maneuver increases MP with appropriate attachment. MP is the only core stat the dark element is ever really associated with, with dark element equipment typically having MP where light element equipment typically has HP on it (but both HP and MP recovery can be either dark or light depending on the school of magic the spell comes from)

[Martel]

Yeeaah. I think that was kinda my fault. But well, the op wasn't really that interesting, and when I see misinformation I try to correct it.

[Ulth]

You also said ;



So, people using the charm ability for years, and noticing that it fails a lot on Darksday, is somehow less scientific than your "I associate youth and beauty with water" claim that charm and affection are somehow water related.

I associate water with lots of things, including tidal waves, floods, drowning etc. lol

Thanks for taking what I said out of context, that is very mature of you. No it's not as scientific as "Me and all my friends agree", but is just as scientific of the transitive properties of charm = love, love = light, therefore charm = light. You know the thing I was responding to at the time.

This whole argument is silly. Ulth is jsut casting doubt for the sake of casting doubt. While even I demand evidence to support conclusions, charm isn't a new thing in this game, people have had plenty of time to observe how it works. It's not like there isn't any in game material including dialogue, various equipment, ability icon colors that supports what's being said in here, along with a plethora of available targets and methods to determine what influences charm success rate.

Kind of hilarious how a thread about making tank jobs tank better turned into a debate on whether or not charm is light based.

As far as links between elements and core attributes, PUP, WHM RDM and GEO make (Most of) these associations explicitly clear:

Fire maneuver increases the automaton's STR; Boost/Gain-STR and geo/indi-STR are fire element
Wind increases AGI; Boost/gain AGI and geo/indi AGI are wind element
Thunder " DEX; " " DEX are Thunder element
Water " MND; " " MND are Water element
Ice " INT; " " MND are Ice element
Earth " VIT; " " VIT are Earth element
Light maneuver increases CHR, HP with appropriate attachment; " " CHR are Light element
(Here is where it's slightly cloudier)
Dark maneuver increases MP with appropriate attachment. MP is the only core stat the dark element is ever really associated with, with dark element equipment typically having MP where light element equipment typically has HP on it (but both HP and MP recovery can be either dark or light depending on the school of magic the spell comes from)

Thank you for trivializing my concern that the player base might be wrong about something, (not like that has ever happened before, am I right?)

You're right I think they were doing gauge for other things been a long time since I read alla.... here ya go

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...6&h=50&p=6#280

Thanks for that link. It was an interesting read, and also the only thanks I wasn't sarcastic about.

Hmm, Well I see dasva managed to find some decent testing before I posted. Well, that renders my post more or less irrelevant, but I guess I'll post it anyway.

Oh, and someone go nuke that derpy charm wiki page and link that testing to your edit.
--------
I wouldn't blame anyone for questioning the current community knowledge base, this is part of how we correct old errors and learn new things, however...

Anecdotal evidence >>> No evidence. You're basing your stance off a single relatively recent wiki edit by some unknown wiki'er. No source. no citations. no testimonials. no nothing.

Now, do I have some indepth charm element testing handy? Nope. I suspect with enough digging into some really old BST posts, we might find some. But why would anyone? It's been known and accepted in general by the gaming community for years.

As the one proposing that the current accepted element for charm is in error, the burden of proof is on you. So if you want any of the rest of us to change our potentially erroneous ways then get out there and create that test data you want.

Well I was going to try and do some testing, but after 20 minutes or so of Dom Juan not using Frog Song on me I have come to the conclusion that it would take more time than I am willing to put in to get a large enough sample size. So I give up. I don't care. If no one else is interested in finding out if the world is round or not why should I.

[Martel]

Well I was going to try and do some testing, but after 20 minutes or so of Dom Juan not using Frog Song on me I have come to the conclusion that it would take more time than I am willing to put in to get a large enough sample size. So I give up. I don't care. If no one else is interested in finding out if the world is round or not why should I.

Well, the rest of us were pretty sure about it in any case. Which dasva later vindicated.

But I actually went out to go do some testing as well. Seeing as I don't have BST, I went to try resisting charm on RUN. I've had the experience of resisting charm reliably on Hyoscya(yorcia delve T5), but... it'd take a painfully long time to get good sample sizes from that.

So, I went to the most charm spammy NM in existence. The All-seeing Onyx eye. It spams a gaze version of charm about every 5 seconds. Figured I could rack up data pretty fast. So I thought....

No matter how high I stacked up the magic evasion and light/water resist, I could NOT get a full resist at all. Lvl 75 era NM, and I couldn't resist it with +331 light resist(451 water), +381 magic evasion, AND an Idris GEO's Attunement+Vex....

I came to the conclusion that the damn thing didn't have a resist check. Probably cause you can avoid it just by turning around. Went to the other NM in the same zone that also charms, if far less frequently. Repeat the above paragraph. lol. /sigh

I shoulda just gone to Hyoscya. I can reliably resist the charm from level 128(I think?) content, but 75 era NMs are unresistable?

So anyway. After blowing ~2 hours for 0 results. I came to basically the same conclusion as you, and quit. Then wrote up the post you quoted, saw dasva's post, and figured, case closed.

[Alhanelem]

Thank you for trivializing my concern that the player base might be wrong about something

I"m concerned that you're concerned about the possibility of the playerbase being wrong about something so trivial.

Of course, the playerbase, or at least that which the respondents on this forum represent, are not wrong here, for sure at least regarding BST charm. If you're so concerned about it, why not do some scientific testing of your own, since you're accusing everyone of confirmation bias and eyeballing while offering no real proof of your own that your position is correct? Of course, in the same post you said you weren't willing to put forth the effort- which basically concludes this discussion since you're unable to effectively make your case.

(Note that much of what was discussed was actually about beastmaster charm- and based on the comments above, i'm probably most inclined to believe that it depends entirely on the mob and in at least some cases, probably explicit "resist charm' or "resist all status ailments" are the only things that will help).

@ above poster, if you want a mob that spams charm which you can easily resist, the silver sea remnants I salvage boss does a single target charm ability that it spams until it hits at least one person with it- it fails a lot just by having high magic evasion.

[Martel]

@ above poster, if you want a mob that spams charm which you can easily resist, the silver sea remnants I salvage boss does a single target charm ability that it spams until it hits at least one person with it- it fails a lot just by having high magic evasion.

I'm aware of the mob and it's tendencies. But I wasn't going to waste a salvage run on it. And since dasva already posted a link to good testing indicating that charm is light based, I don't see any reason to mess with it anymore. I was just putting it out there that I did try to gather some data. If ineffectively.

[Alhanelem]

I'm aware of the mob and it's tendencies. But I wasn't going to waste a salvage run on it. And since dasva already posted a link to good testing indicating that charm is light based, I don't see any reason to mess with it anymore. I was just putting it out there that I did try to gather some data. If ineffectively.

Eh, its not that bad, for salvage 1, its one of the best alex droppers. If you're lucky enough to get the bag from the boss, its up there with the other good runs. But you have a fair point.

[Ulth]

I"m concerned that you're concerned about the possibility of the playerbase being wrong about something so trivial.

Of course, the playerbase, or at least that which the respondents on this forum represent, are not wrong here, for sure at least regarding BST charm. If you're so concerned about it, why not do some scientific testing of your own, since you're accusing everyone of confirmation bias and eyeballing while offering no real proof of your own that your position is correct? Of course, in the same post you said you weren't willing to put forth the effort- which basically concludes this discussion since you're unable to effectively make your case.

(Note that much of what was discussed was actually about beastmaster charm- and based on the comments above, i'm probably most inclined to believe that it depends entirely on the mob and in at least some cases, probably explicit "resist charm' or "resist all status ailments" are the only things that will help).

@ above poster, if you want a mob that spams charm which you can easily resist, the silver sea remnants I salvage boss does a single target charm ability that it spams until it hits at least one person with it- it fails a lot just by having high magic evasion.

What this originally was about was which rune Rune Fencers should use in order to resist charm. You are the one who brought up beast master.

Also, charm is indeed light based, the player charm is determined by charisma which is the stat associated with the light element.

I don't actually care if a level 75 bst should use light staff or not. I don't play bst, and don't plan to in the future. Even if I did from what I gather charm is obsolete and replaced with jug pets. The people conducting the light staff test in the link even joked about how charm testing only took place long after it was useful.

What does matter is that there are mobs in current content that use charm. It would be nice to know what runes to use to not get hit by charm.

[Alhanelem]

You are the one who brought up beast master.

No, I'm not the one who brought that up. Go back and read the thread.

It would be nice to know what runes to use to not get hit by charm.

Then I suggest you go by what was specifically written on the wiki and see how that works for you. If you try it and test it and it does nothing, you can come back and laugh in all our faces going HA HA UR WRONG HA HA all day long. Til then, stop acting like everyone has to be wrong because... no reason other than they must be wrong! You're the first person i've ever seen in the game or on any forum to suggest that charm is anything other than light based.

Every rule has exceptions, there are the occasional nm or other thing that inflicts a status with an ability of a different element than is typical. Some might even be non-elemental, and the only thing that might work is a specific resistance to the status effect or an item that gives resistance to all bad statuses. But at least as far as the charm status as it can be inflicted by a player, all the sources of it are light based (BST ability, and Maiden's Virelai BRD song)