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  1. #1
    Player Byrth's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,172
    Character
    Byrth
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    I like the Dagger WS update for a few reasons:
    1) I am about a week from completing all of the RME daggers.
    2) It encourages skillchaining and collaboration between different DD jobs (as opposed to just using SAM on everything).
    3) People let me come Dancer to stuff again.

    However, current content is obviously not designed for it, as demonstrated by your WKRs and every Unity NM. I would love to have a buff like this eventually, but I think SE needed to increase monster HP before doing this.
    (1)
    Last edited by Byrth; 12-23-2014 at 03:12 AM.

  2. #2
    Player Afania's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,452
    Character
    Afania
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 1
    IMO it's just wrong to buff Fudo to OP level, then buff Rudra to OP lv, what's next? Our dmg just go up infinitely without the need to increase ilv.

    1h DD shouldn't be on par/beat 2h DD as well. Almost all the 1h DD job offers something more than dealing dmg, what does 2h DD offer besides DRG's angon and DRK's stun?

    I vote for a nerf, yeah.
    (1)

  3. #3
    Player Ulth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    578
    Character
    Andrewviii
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Afania View Post
    IMO it's just wrong to buff Fudo to OP level, then buff Rudra to OP lv, what's next? Our dmg just go up infinitely without the need to increase ilv.

    1h DD shouldn't be on par/beat 2h DD as well. Almost all the 1h DD job offers something more than dealing dmg, what does 2h DD offer besides DRG's angon and DRK's stun?

    I vote for a nerf, yeah.
    You would have a valid point if the jobs that use those weapons skills did bring something to the table other than damage. And no Treasure Hunter doesn't count. Thf's enmity control flat out doesn't work, I honestly get more use out of flash than accomplish and collaborator. As for dancer I don't know for sure but I remember seeing Bryth post something about how little steps matter when they changed the timers to 5 seconds, and he knows his dancer. Bards can use rudra's too, but they aren't dropping 25k+ weapons skills. It's almost like what makes that weapons skill good is a unique ability of thf and dnc. Also can't help but notice the lack of outrage for the buff to one handed sword weaponskills, even though you claim that one handed jobs shouldn't beat out two handed. I guess that doesn't matter for your favorite job blu.
    (1)

  4. #4
    Player Afania's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,452
    Character
    Afania
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulth View Post
    I guess that doesn't matter for your favorite job blu.
    I like BLU, but I'd rather play a game with good job variety and balance, not a game with a few OP jobs that completely pwns all other jobs, even if those OP jobs are my favorite jobs. In the case of BLU, it's completely different from other DD, so that's job variety. Due to the versatility it has, it shouldn't outparse other DD jobs, that's balance.

    Good game design and job balance > My personal job preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulth View Post
    You would have a valid point if the jobs that use those weapons skills did bring something to the table other than damage. And no Treasure Hunter doesn't count.
    Treasure hunter doesn't count, treasure hunter doesn't count. Everytime when we have a DD hierarchy discussion, and we talk about how useful THF are because it's used in dyna/incursion/all higher tier BC, the only reply we got was "treasure hunter doesn't count, THF dmg suck, buff THF dmg plz". I don't understand, what makes TH doesn't count?

    Since THF is already used for TH(which is an undeniable fact), it wouldn't make sense if THF can parse high AND TH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulth View Post
    As for dancer I don't know for sure but I remember seeing Bryth post something about how little steps matter when they changed the timers to 5 seconds, and he knows his dancer.
    I think you misunderstood??? If anything changing step to 5 sec recast is an improvement, not a nerf. You can reach 23% def down faster, thus it's higher avg def down(and higher pt output over all).

    I haven't check spreadsheet for a while, and I don't have access to them atm, so I can't post numbers just yet.....but last time when I checked, if I remember correctly, 23% def down+ the dmg from DNC and 2 other DD> 3 DD, unless your attack is capped.

    Now that DNC probably beats most of the weaker 2h DD such as WAR, which is just too OP period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camiie View Post
    You say 1h DD bring other things to the table, but what you're not getting is that those things must have value to matter. No party leader cares about hate control, haste samba, waltzes, or pets because none of these things help in current content. I truly wish that weren't the case, but reality is reality. Their utility wasn't being utilized so they had to be given something beneficial that mattered. Damage is surely that.
    No pt leader cares about hate control, but they care about TH. Again, I love how ppl purposely filter out the benefit of TH when we talk about THF, so they feel like making THF stronger than WAR is legit.

    Nobody cares about haste samba and waltz, but def down from steps does matter.

    Those really makes a difference, and the reality is DRK WAR suck, there are no reason to use them in an event since they're not strong enough, and they can't step like DNC, TH like THF, nor sleep/terror/cure/haste/defense down like BLU.

    That is not balance, that's bad design.
    (0)
    Last edited by Afania; 12-23-2014 at 11:29 PM.

  5. #5
    Player Xantavia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Serpent General Wannabe
    Posts
    307
    Character
    Xantavia
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Afania View Post
    Treasure hunter doesn't count, treasure hunter doesn't count. Everytime when we have a DD hierarchy discussion, and we talk about how useful THF are because it's used in dyna/incursion/all higher tier BC, the only reply we got was "treasure hunter doesn't count, THF dmg suck, buff THF dmg plz". I don't understand, what makes TH doesn't count?

    Since THF is already used for TH(which is an undeniable fact), it wouldn't make sense if THF can parse high AND TH.
    The devs have always said TH is what makes thf unique, and that trait makes up for not getting any other buffs. But as time goes on, they are giving out more TH stuff to other jobs. THF's defining party role as stated by SE is becoming less important as they allow others to have it. At this point, the only reason TH would count is because a THF can raise it to a higher level, but you can still get some of the benefits without a single thf or /thf in sight.
    (3)

  6. #6
    Player Ulth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    578
    Character
    Andrewviii
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Afania View Post
    I like BLU, but I'd rather play a game with good job variety and balance, not a game with a few OP jobs that completely pwns all other jobs, even if those OP jobs are my favorite jobs. In the case of BLU, it's completely different from other DD, so that's job variety. Due to the versatility it has, it shouldn't outparse other DD jobs, that's balance.

    Good game design and job balance > My personal job preference.



    Treasure hunter doesn't count, treasure hunter doesn't count. Everytime when we have a DD hierarchy discussion, and we talk about how useful THF are because it's used in dyna/incursion/all higher tier BC, the only reply we got was "treasure hunter doesn't count, THF dmg suck, buff THF dmg plz". I don't understand, what makes TH doesn't count?

    Since THF is already used for TH(which is an undeniable fact), it wouldn't make sense if THF can parse high AND TH.



    I think you misunderstood??? If anything changing step to 5 sec recast is an improvement, not a nerf. You can reach 23% def down faster, thus it's higher avg def down(and higher pt output over all).

    I haven't check spreadsheet for a while, and I don't have access to them atm, so I can't post numbers just yet.....but last time when I checked, if I remember correctly, 23% def down+ the dmg from DNC and 2 other DD> 3 DD, unless your attack is capped.

    Now that DNC probably beats most of the weaker 2h DD such as WAR, which is just too OP period.



    No pt leader cares about hate control, but they care about TH. Again, I love how ppl purposely filter out the benefit of TH when we talk about THF, so they feel like making THF stronger than WAR is legit.

    Nobody cares about haste samba and waltz, but def down from steps does matter.

    Those really makes a difference, and the reality is DRK WAR suck, there are no reason to use them in an event since they're not strong enough, and they can't step like DNC, TH like THF, nor sleep/terror/cure/haste/defense down like BLU.

    That is not balance, that's bad design.
    Treasure hunter doesn't count because half the time it doesn't do anything. It may help in merit fights, and incursion, but drops are guaranteed in delve, and I don't think it does anything for walk of echos either. Even then anything past TH3 matters so little that it isn't worth it. So a ranger with one bounty shot can get about the same drops as a thief all with better hate control and the safety of attacking from out of AoE range. That's why a lot of people forgo thieves in AA fights for more rangers. As for incursion there isn't such a steep cost for entering so they could just do runs faster to make up for a lack of treasure hunter. That is why Treasure Hunter doesn't matter. It doesn't do a whole heck of a lot. Don't get me wrong it is super useful if you need to farm drops from mobs, but matters little with smaller sample sizes.

    Also I need to point something out for people who don't know much about playing thief.
    Quote Originally Posted by Byrth View Post
    For Rudra's, you should do something between 1000 and 1750 unstacked. If you're going to stack it, you should probably do 1750 and shouldn't feel bad about TPing a bit over waiting on timers, particularly if you're going to be able to skillchain.

    If you are playing cooperatively with other players and attribute all the skillchain damage to whoever closes it, THF is the best DD in the game right now.
    This right here. This is why I like playing thief. I like working as a team. Without anyone to trick attack with, or hold hate while you sneak attack thf's damage is a fraction of what it is. With people helping it's the best in the game. That's balance, and rewarding players for team work.
    (3)

  7. #7
    Player Camiie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Bastok
    Posts
    1,495
    Character
    Camiie
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Afania View Post
    IMO it's just wrong to buff Fudo to OP level, then buff Rudra to OP lv, what's next? Our dmg just go up infinitely without the need to increase ilv.

    1h DD shouldn't be on par/beat 2h DD as well. Almost all the 1h DD job offers something more than dealing dmg, what does 2h DD offer besides DRG's angon and DRK's stun?

    I vote for a nerf, yeah.
    You say 1h DD bring other things to the table, but what you're not getting is that those things must have value to matter. No party leader cares about hate control, haste samba, waltzes, or pets because none of these things help in current content. I truly wish that weren't the case, but reality is reality. Their utility wasn't being utilized so they had to be given something beneficial that mattered. Damage is surely that.
    (1)

  8. #8
    Player Olor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,134
    Quote Originally Posted by Camiie View Post
    You say 1h DD bring other things to the table, but what you're not getting is that those things must have value to matter. No party leader cares about hate control, haste samba, waltzes, or pets because none of these things help in current content. I truly wish that weren't the case, but reality is reality. Their utility wasn't being utilized so they had to be given something beneficial that mattered. Damage is surely that.
    Amen. Seriously, I don't see why people are crying about more jobs being usable in content. If this means people feel like they can invite a thf or a dnc instead of another SAM, well then, yay, awesome, more people can play the jobs they like best.

    It's funny to see people saying this reduces job diversity after watching months of either MNK MNK MNK WHM BRD SCH or SAM SAM SAM WHM BRD SCH or RNG RNG PLD WHM BRD SCH or some such... seriously.

    SAM is still good. Now other jobs are good too. Why cry about it?
    (7)
    Last edited by Olor; 12-24-2014 at 03:43 AM.
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  9. #9
    Player Afania's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,452
    Character
    Afania
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Olor View Post
    Amen. Seriously, I don't see why people are crying about more jobs being usable in content. If this means people feel like they can invite a thf or a dnc instead of another SAM, well then, yay, awesome, more people can play the jobs they like best.

    It's funny to see people saying this reduces job diversity after watching months of either MNK MNK MNK WHM BRD SCH or SAM SAM SAM WHM BRD SCH or RNG RNG PLD WHM BRD SCH or some such... seriously.

    SAM is still good. Now other jobs are good too. Why cry about it?
    I'm fine with ppl invite THF DNC instead of another SAM. I'm not fine with jobs that's designed to be DD, such as WAR DRK falls behind them.
    (0)
    Last edited by Afania; 12-25-2014 at 12:56 AM.

  10. #10
    Player Nebo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Thief
    Posts
    475
    Character
    Nebo
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Afania View Post
    I'm fine with ppl invite THF DNC instead of another SAM. I'm not fine with jobs that's designed to be DD, such as WAR DRK falls behind them.
    There's part of your problem there. THF and DNC are DD jobs. If you really want to get technical about it, WAR was "designed" to be a tank. Start the game with sword and shield, got JA's like provoke and defender.

    THF, on the other hand, was the best DD in the game at release, for quite the same reason it's strong now.

    That whole argument of "X job wasn't designed to be a DD" doesnt have any merit. DNC CAN throw out cures with TP but it cannot realistically main heal a party at a high level. It has a side utility in that regard. Just like DRK has Side utility in Black Magic, unique WS. WAR has Tank JA's, and Enfeebling WS, mastery over many weapon types etc.
    (2)
    Last edited by Nebo; 12-25-2014 at 04:00 AM.

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