dagger ws too OP?

[dasva]

Meanwhile sams do that skillchaining except they 5 step and do it with no other DDs in the pt without need for 1hrs just constantly throwing out skillchains with no waits inbetween and have been doing so since the skillchain update

Also there is no way a thf thf cor combo is going to survive long enough to get that tp let alone be able to do ws anywhere near that powerful powerful with that lack of support on anything that worthwhile

[Afania]

Meanwhile sams do that skillchaining except they 5 step and do it with no other DDs in the pt without need for 1hrs just constantly throwing out skillchains with no waits inbetween and have been doing so since the skillchain update

Also there is no way a thf thf cor combo is going to survive long enough to get that tp let alone be able to do ws anywhere near that powerful powerful with that lack of support on anything that worthwhile

AFAIK 1 SAM 5 steps isn't going to do 600k dmg in 1.5 min, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though, since I don't play SAM.

I'm not sure what do you mean by THF THF COR, isn't going to "survive long enough" to get that much TP since you have 3 more PT spot for healer/support? I also tossed out a scenario to get TP with very little downtime: Enter the BC or pop the NM with 3000 TP, get 3000 TP again with wildcard.

[Nebo]

I don't understand

QFT

why can't rudra get a nerf.

Because it doesn't need one.

I haven't try this personally

See point one.

[Afania]

Because it doesn't need one.

I'm so posting 99999 darkness SC SS from rudras next time when I see one. Maybe I should make a THF rudras +SC one shot video as well.

[dasva]

AFAIK 1 SAM 5 steps isn't going to do 600k dmg in 1.5 min, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though, since I don't play SAM.

I'm not sure what do you mean by THF THF COR, isn't going to "survive long enough" to get that much TP since you have 3 more PT spot for healer/support? I also tossed out a scenario to get TP with very little downtime: Enter the BC or pop the NM with 3000 TP, get 3000 TP again with wildcard.

Thf isn't going to do 50k dmg on anything regardless of buffs or tp on something that isn't weak to physical/piercing and if we are going that route guess what I've seen groups that go 5 support 1 sam in yorcia delve because the sam can kill nms in 30 seconds. And a 2 step level 3 on a mob with higher level than you will only do 35% more dmg than the closing ws without some kind of magic weakness (not counting things like skillchain bonus obis elemental staffs etc) so that 99999 was a definite fluke

Normal numbers for 3000 SA or TA rudra's without dmg weaknesses are more like 20-25k. Hell I barely get 60k (admittedly not the best geared) in abyssea against piercing weak mobs with +100% crit dmg atmas on stuff I know I'm capping attack on. So a rudra rudra skillchain assuming you can actually get both of them SA and/or TA (in a fight of any length this might require unengaging for a short time to allow the other thf to definitely have hate) you'd expect a total dmg about 80k. More if you can obviously throw in some extra buffs/debufs with other support or like I think you were suggesting having the cor start the skillchain so the first rudra's does dark and the 2nd does double dark (not counting the cor dmg that would be more like 130k)

Now I admit I don't hang with great sams much but I normally see the around 8k for kasha and 10-12k for fudo/Shoha (someone with better numbers can pipe in) but using those much lower ws numbers than rudra's a normal 5 step skillchain for sam would do 140k and be done in all of about 20-30 seconds and then if the mob is alive do it again. And since you only need 1 dd could easily throw another support in there like say smn for crystalline blessing tp bonus to up that dmg a lot. And this is just delve gkt without any special jas being used someone with Kogarasumaru could do much better and when they are up things like meditate, Sengikori, and Hagakure will greatly increase dmgs all on 3 min timers

The survive thing was because you were seeming to imply just 2thf + cor was going to wreck stuff which it wont

[Byrth]

5 Support? Psssht. We were doing 15 minuteish runs with 4 support and a SAM. I know it has been beaten with 2 support and a SAM.

[Afania]

Thf isn't going to do 50k dmg on anything regardless of buffs or tp on something that isn't weak to physical/piercing and if we are going that route guess what I've seen groups that go 5 support 1 sam in yorcia delve because the sam can kill nms in 30 seconds. And a 2 step level 3 on a mob with higher level than you will only do 35% more dmg than the closing ws without some kind of magic weakness (not counting things like skillchain bonus obis elemental staffs etc) so that 99999 was a definite fluke

Since the previous setup I mentioned has a COR, you get additional 35% SC bonus from rolls. If you can somehow cap attack without /WAR(which seems doable with idris GEO 2hr COR etc), /DNC gives another 8%. 99999 isn't as out of reach as it seems.

Now I admit I don't hang with great sams much but I normally see the around 8k for kasha and 10-12k for fudo/Shoha (someone with better numbers can pipe in) but using those much lower ws numbers than rudra's a normal 5 step skillchain for sam would do 140k and be done in all of about 20-30 seconds and then if the mob is alive do it again.

Is that 10k~12k avg? If your SAM is averaging 10k~12k fudo/shoha, I'm not convinced that THF SATA 3000 TP is only 20~25k under the same buff on the same target. Since I've seen much higher SATA 3k TP rudra than 20k~25k on mobs without weakness, but in most of the situation SAM usually won't avg 10k~12k fudo/shoha unless a GEO 2hr or fighting wopket.

Btw, I'm not sure why's sam being pulled into this discussion again. I've been saying SAM SC mechanics needs a nerf over and over again, on BG and on this forum. There's no point to defend for the OPness of rudra by using SAM/fudo as an example. Both WS has serious design flaws that needs a nerf. You guys are trying to justify a flawed design with another flawed design.

[Nebo]

Btw, I'm not sure why's sam being pulled into this discussion again. I've been saying SAM SC mechanics needs a nerf over and over again, on BG and on this forum. There's no point to defend for the OPness of rudra by using SAM/fudo as an example. Both WS has serious design flaws that needs a nerf. You guys are trying to justify a flawed design with another flawed design.

All you are really saying is that Skillchains need adjustment(I agree with this). And a 99999 skillchain is a result of a double darkness and exploiting a damage bonus (piercing, +MDT, etc) like a lot of the largantua SS you see. Rudra's storm is not an OP WS. It's actually quite mediocre without holding TP and stacking with JA's. That's the main point you are missing. Other DD's can just SPAM many powerful WS without concern for position or recast timers at the delay reduction cap in the same timeframe that a THF could pull off one powerful stacked Rudra. Of Course that singular WS number is going to be bigger, but the opportunities to do them are also more limited.

It also bears repeating that many jobs are still ahead of THF in terms of DPS potential. Cry BLU nerf, CRY SAM nerf, cry something that makes actual sense....or just stop crying. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

[dasva]

Since the previous setup I mentioned has a COR, you get additional 35% SC bonus from rolls. If you can somehow cap attack without /WAR(which seems doable with idris GEO 2hr COR etc), /DNC gives another 8%. 99999 isn't as out of reach as it seems.

Yeah the sams can also get that roll so nice try. And they benefit more than thf would from several other rolls namely save tp and DA rolls

Is that 10k~12k avg? If your SAM is averaging 10k~12k fudo/shoha, I'm not convinced that THF SATA 3000 TP is only 20~25k under the same buff on the same target. Since I've seen much higher SATA 3k TP rudra than 20k~25k, but in most of the situation SAM usually won't avg 10k~12k fudo/shoha unless a GEO 2hr or fighting wopket..

Wtf does geo have to do with it? All they are doing is lowering def and thf is more likely to need that that sam especially with shoha. And Wopket? I've seen waaaaaaaaaaaaaay higher sam dmg than that.

3000 SA rudra's with capped pdif on a dmg neutral target with 300 dex and +25% crit dmg is mathed out to ~30k dmg. So your "much" higher is definitely a dmg weak mob and I use thf a lot now and 20-25k is much closer to the norm on neutral mobs. But sure let's go with 30k and give you a 8% skillchain bonus your rudra rudra dark goes up to 103k.

A Fudo with 300 str, also capped pdif with overwhelm with delve gkt on a dmg neutral mob with average effective tp of 1800 (fairly easy since they can get to 1000 before animation ends combined with 550 tp bonus) with only on average 1 extra hit (mythic sams will be much higher) is 9.5k fudo and 5.5k shoha so guess I'm just seeing a lot of dmg weak stuff. Adjusting for that the 5 step skillchain will only be 93k.

Slightly less but much more repeatable so while your thfs are waiting for tp/timers and trying to get into position/turn the mob your sam or other DDs are spamming their ws. And these ws are significantly more buffable since they will increase with tp a lot and the relatively low ftp helps make extra hits do more. And if we are going to bring in your spike dmg I'm going to bring in sam jas to boost that a dmg

Btw, I'm not sure why's sam being pulled into this discussion again. I've been saying SAM SC mechanics needs a nerf over and over again, on BG and on this forum. There's no point to defend for the OPness of rudra by using SAM/fudo as an example. Both WS has serious design flaws that needs a nerf. You guys are trying to justify a flawed design with another flawed design.

Sam is being pulled in to show that other jobs can do it to and do so with what is now mediocre ws dmg to show that the real problem was the skillchain update. And if you think Fudo is OP idk what to tell you as I can outdo fudos dmg with rdm cdcs. I posted a 50k+ cloudsplitter the past page which I'm pretty sure I could beat with trueflight on my rng and leaden salute is better than that now especially with the newish hairpin. I think byrth gets 30k vidohunirs solo on blm

Also if you want to get into realllly big numbers go sam + thf instead of just sam or thf thf. The game might only display 99999 but the dmg goes higher and you will hit skillchains waaaaaaaay higher than that

[dasva]

5 Support? Psssht. We were doing 15 minuteish runs with 4 support and a SAM. I know it has been beaten with 2 support and a SAM.

Wasn't that 2 support sam triboxed too?